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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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6 minutes ago, Robert James said:

The SPFL clubs would never vote for this. It was difficult getting the current play-off arrangement, with the Highland/Lowland winners.

Look at England, where the pyramid is straightforward, and has worked at Tier 5 (national). Even at Tier 6, there are only 2 feeder leagues (North & South).  The above  suggestion would be chaotic whether now, or in the future, and won't happen.

Why are West Juniors worried about playing against Lowland sides in the pyramid ? It just looks like status quo, status quo, status quo...................ie: stay with the juniors, but give us the full benefits of SFA Membership and licensing, whilst we retain our SJFA badges, structure, and West leagues ! 

I think it would be fairly straight forward.

Bottom League two relegated, second bottom into a play-off with Champions of HL, LL (East), LL (West).  Four teams, two ties, winners of both go up or stay up.

That said, it would take a long time  for the current set-up to absorb everyone who wants to be in it and for everyone to find their place.  Then a few seasons of stability, perhaps 10 years in all.  Only then would the idea gain any traction with SPFL clubs, but this should be the next step to improving the bottom end of the SPFL and top end of non-league long term.

Edited by Burnie_man
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20 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I think it would be fairly straight forward.

Bottom League two relegated, second bottom into a play-off with Champions of HL, LL (East), LL (West).  Four teams, two ties, winners of both go up or stay up.

That said, it would take a long time  for the current set-up to absorb everyone who wants to be in it and for everyone to find their place.  Then a few seasons of stability, perhaps 10 years in all.  Only then would the idea gain any traction with SPFL clubs, but this should be the next step to improving the bottom end of the SPFL and top end of non-league long term.

I think we’d need to see the current play off produce more non league winners before a play off like that would be entertained. 

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I think it would be fairly straight forward.
Bottom League two relegated, second bottom into a play-off with Champions of HL, LL (East), LL (West).  Four teams, two ties, winners of both go up or stay up.
That said, it would take a long time  for the current set-up to absorb everyone who wants to be in it and for everyone to find their place.  Then a few seasons of stability, perhaps 10 years in all.  Only then would the idea gain any traction with SPFL clubs, but this should be the next step to improving the bottom end of the SPFL and top end of non-league long term.


I doubt we’ll ever see a 3 way split at Tier 5 while tier 4 is National. It’s nothing to do with how many clubs are in each area it’s more a gradual step for getting teams ready for a national league. At present Kelty are in the EoS and travel around Fife, Lothians and Borders. Next promotion will see them traveling a bit further across half the country and another promotion will see them travel nationally. With a 3 way split Kelty would go from traveling about a quarter of the country to the traveling the whole country after one promotion. In a pyramid the regions should gradually get larger as you progress so each promotion is easier to adjust to. Personally I’d have

Premiership - national
Championship- national
North / South
North East / North West / South West / South East
Glasgow / Edinburgh/ Fife / Ayrshire.....etc
With gradual splits as you go down.

I’d like larger leagues and every team from amateur to right up to the SPFL premiership involved with no glass floors or ceilings.
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5 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

 


I doubt we’ll ever see a 3 way split at Tier 5 while tier 4 is National. It’s nothing to do with how many clubs are in each area it’s more a gradual step for getting teams ready for a national league. At present Kelty are in the EoS and travel around Fife, Lothians and Borders. Next promotion will see them traveling a bit further across half the country and another promotion will see them travel nationally. With a 3 way split Kelty would go from traveling about a quarter of the country to the traveling the whole country after one promotion. In a pyramid the regions should gradually get larger as you progress so each promotion is easier to adjust to. Personally I’d have

Premiership - national
Championship- national
North / South
North East / North West / South West / South East
Glasgow / Edinburgh/ Fife / Ayrshire.....etc
With gradual splits as you go down.

I’d like larger leagues and every team from amateur to right up to the SPFL premiership involved with no glass floors or ceilings.

You need to realise that the Lowland League area has more than double the clubs than the Highland, yet both equal chance for promotion. That's not how a Pyramid should work.

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With the way the population is spread in Scotland, a North/South divide isn't a fair situation at tier five.   It gives the northern clubs a huge advantage over the southern clubs.  North/East/West makes far more sense.    A huge percentage of the population of Scotland live in the central belt.

Only issue I see with the playoff format suggested by burnieman is that you'd have playoffs of SPFL v non-league and non-league v non-league with both winners being in the SPFL the following season.  Not very fair that one side has to face an SPFL side and the other two don't.  It's trickier to work out a fair format for the playoffs.

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You need to realise that the Lowland League area has more than double the clubs than the Highland, yet both equal chance for promotion. That's not how a Pyramid should work.


I disagree, areas with more teams have more divisions going down more tiers. Not all the areas have the same number of teams but they all have the same number of promotion spots. It doesn’t matter how many splits you have, the best teams will rise up the divisions. Wanting the number of teams to be equal would either mean a border that moves like England where they had a ridiculous scenario of Gloucester playing in the northern league or you end up with a bottle neck of too many leagues playing off with each other where one league might be stronger and always win. Say HL/LLE/LLW promoting to a ten team SPFL 2, they’re never going to have 3 down so in theory if the HL and LLW where stronger LLE would struggle to progress as they keep losing the playoff and not moving up. I dislike the current HL/LL playoff. Champions of a league should move up.
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10 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

 


I disagree, areas with more teams have more divisions going down more tiers. Not all the areas have the same number of teams but they all have the same number of promotion spots. It doesn’t matter how many splits you have, the best teams will rise up the divisions. Wanting the number of teams to be equal would either mean a border that moves like England where they had a ridiculous scenario of Gloucester playing in the northern league or you end up with a bottle neck of too many leagues playing off with each other where one league might be stronger and always win. Say HL/LLE/LLW promoting to a ten team SPFL 2, they’re never going to have 3 down so in theory if the HL and LLW where stronger LLE would struggle to progress as they keep losing the playoff and not moving up. I dislike the current HL/LL playoff. Champions of a league should move up.

You shouldn't compare to England, completely different.  In Scotland we have a huge area with far fewer clubs and people, having the same opportunity as a smaller area but with 4/5th's of the population and over double the amount of clubs.   It's common sense that a straight split between the two doesn't ensure fair competition.  Two regional Lowland Leagues would be as strong as the HL and all three would be fairly equitable at the top end.

Either way it's a pointless argument, it wont happen anytime soon, the basics need to be in place first.

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5 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:


No thanks.

I rest my case, you haven't a clue what my view is, but continue with opinion as to what you think it is.

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I rest my case, you haven't a clue what my view is, but continue with opinion as to what you think it is.

Your view is that the pyramid doesnt work, you say it repeatedly. You also go on about junior teams sticking together etc etc and then decry any team seeking to leave junior football. Even your fellow Talbot fans seek to distance themselves from your posts on the subject.
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2 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:


Your view is that the pyramid doesnt work, you say it repeatedly. You also go on about junior teams sticking together etc etc and then decry any team seeking to leave junior football. Even your fellow Talbot fans seek to distance themselves from your posts on the subject.

Where did I go on about Junior teams sticking together? What Talbot fans seem to distance themselves? 

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6 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

I rest my case, you haven't a clue what my view is, but continue with opinion as to what you think it is.

You could always revive your popular 'Junior Giants' thread. That opinion piece wasn't at all antagonistic or divisive. 

Tell folk to read your posts.

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2 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

You could always revive your popular 'Junior Giants' thread. That opinion piece wasn't at all antagonistic or divisive. 

Tell folk to read your posts.

Yes read it, it backs up most of my points on this thread. 

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Yes read it, it backs up most of my points on this thread. 


In other news, I’ve just spent the best part of the last half hour catching up on today’s posts on this thread...

Every one of your posts has just made me say “Fucking hell”...
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1 minute ago, 8MileBU said:

 


In other news, I’ve just spent the best part of the last half hour catching up on today’s posts on this thread...

Every one of your posts has just made me say “Fucking hell”...

 

We're they that good? 

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11 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Mediocre

Just to change the above theme, is anyone betting on the future of Junior club Clydebank, whose Special Meeting is this Sunday. Will they  (1)apply to join the EoSL, or(2) apply to join the less challenging SoSL. or (3) stay in the Juniors for another year to see what happens in the West ?

 

I notice from the Bankies' website that they have now joined up formally with AFC Clydebank from the Central Amateur League, giving themselves a strong youth development into adult framework. Promising. 

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8 hours ago, Robert James said:

Just to change the above theme, is anyone betting on the future of Junior club Clydebank, whose Special Meeting is this Sunday. Will they  (1)apply to join the EoSL, or(2) apply to join the less challenging SoSL. or (3) stay in the Juniors for another year to see what happens in the West ?

 

I notice from the Bankies' website that they have now joined up formally with AFC Clydebank from the Central Amateur League, giving themselves a strong youth development into adult framework. Promising. 

(1) Apply for the EoSFL. Simplest choice and the league has been that much better at promoting its benefits. If you go back to why this thread was orginated it was about where the club might play next year due to ground improvements at Holm Park. Think some of the EoSFL finances will help get them in shape for licencing during a year when they will also be dishing out rent money. The March 31st deadline also means all the speculation will die down in a week and they can just focus on themselves.

If they go for (2) it's another month of speculation over who else might join the SoSFL as the deadline for them isn't until the 30th April. That's more than enough time for the  rest of the West to consider their options, you wouldn't know who would follow.

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15 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

 

If they go for (2) it's another month of speculation over who else might join the SoSFL as the deadline for them isn't until the 30th April. That's more than enough time for the  rest of the West to consider their options, you wouldn't know who would follow.

No it's not, it's 31 March the same as the East of Scotland league.

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8 hours ago, Robert James said:

Just to change the above theme, is anyone betting on the future of Junior club Clydebank, whose Special Meeting is this Sunday. Will they  (1)apply to join the EoSL, or(2) apply to join the less challenging SoSL. or (3) stay in the Juniors for another year to see what happens in the West ?

 

I notice from the Bankies' website that they have now joined up formally with AFC Clydebank from the Central Amateur League, giving themselves a strong youth development into adult framework. Promising. 

Don't know what option the board are going to present, but from everything I have read I would expect it to be an application for EoSL and I would expect it to be for the start of next season. If that is correct, I would fully support it.

SoSL may be "Less challenging" but for me it's not about that at this point. It's about putting the club in the best possible position for the long term, and I think the EoSL is the best available option as things stand.

Whatever the case, I look forward to following us wherever we end up.

Regards your other point, I agree we now have a very promising set up off the park and that is something I am very encouraged by. I have long said that we need to give ourselves every advantage going and one way of doing that is to ensure we have as much of a presence as possible in the town. Aside from the potential of bringing through players, we also need to create supporters. Like many small clubs, our fan base isn't getting any younger, and getting guys and girls in at a young age and ensuring they identify with the club is one of the best ways  to try and reverse that. All in I am very hopeful for the future. Just need to get the f*cking ground sorted out...

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