Junior football, what is the future?

[Doonhamer doon south]

So what is the future for the north Juniors? Safest option is to bolt on under Highland League is it not?

[The Ilford Drummer]

23 minutes ago, Robert James said:

"Ties to the Junior brand."

Has anyone had access to the results from West clubs (only) regarding the SJFA survey/'ballot' results  about joining the pyramid ?

wonder how many never bothered completing the survey?

[Jambo'ness]

2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

If so many teams from the East Region are going to move across to the EoSFL, then the idea of the Juniors as a unified grade is dead. The North has been completely ignored from the Lowland Superleague idea to the latest Pyramid survey. Whether the blame for that lies with the Region or the SJFA for not being more included is hard to tell. The East can come and go as they please. It's only in the West where there's these ties to the Junior brand.

"Junior brand"?  What brand is that exactly?  It certainly isn't a marketed brand.  It's an old name, from a bygone age.  If the changes that are beginning, continue to sweep through, then the name 'Junior' will be dead in 5 years.

[FairWeatherFan]

40 minutes ago, Jambo'ness said:

"Junior brand"?  What brand is that exactly?  It certainly isn't a marketed brand.  It's an old name, from a bygone age.  If the changes that are beginning, continue to sweep through, then the name 'Junior' will be dead in 5 years.

Yeah, Junior Football is a brand and like I said it's a brand that only has any traction in the West. Following the moves in the East showing they don't care a jot about the name or history and the fact that the SJFA North Region has been so disconnected from the discussion that they could resign from the SJFA and  rebrand themselves the North of Scotland Football League, no one would bat an eye.

Clydebank in terms of the support they can call upon are one of the biggest clubs in the West Region. If they had been in the East or North it would have caused much more of a reaction, but in the West it's been largely brushed off as them never really being a Junior club in the first place.

From the inception of the Lowland League, the SJFA could have shaped the rest of the pyramid in their image and tucked in the EoSFL, SoSFL & NCFL at the bottom of their structure. The SJFA would of lived on, but now it's done. The EoSFL's won out in the East and a WoSFL is coming in the West.

[LongTimeLurker]

3 hours ago, Goalie Hamish said:

- Dalkeith Thistle, Musselburgh Athletic, Dunbar United, Haddington Athletic, Edinburgh United, Blackburn United, Camelon from what I was hearing yesterday. Might not be 100% accurate.

Add in Bonnyrigg if they vote that way and maybe Clydebank but unlikely.

[Sergeant Wilson]

1 hour ago, Doonhamer doon south said:

So what is the future for the north Juniors? Safest option is to bolt on under Highland League is it not?

Yes, but HL aren't having it. It will need to be ordered from above.

[dwl123]

11 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Yes, but HL aren't having it. It will need to be ordered from above.

The HL will always welcome new member clubs. The problem it has i the fact that at 18 clubs currently there is no route to allow just one club in. The league is at its limit as a single division. All cjrrent member clubs have floodlights enclosed grounds and a host of facilities which has resulted in a lot of spend. A good example is Strathspey Th a few years back a north junior club with a picket fence rou d the pitch. Now a fully enclosed ground eith stand and floodlights. My point is that expansion in the north requires a number of clubs to commit to make a HL2 viable and they will have to spend money upgrading facilities at a basic level. Theyre just isnt th support or money in this area to make it happen in the short term. So no the HL is not a closed shop.

[Sergeant Wilson]

4 minutes ago, dwl123 said:

The HL will always welcome new member clubs. The problem it has i the fact that at 18 clubs currently there is no route to allow just one club in. The league is at its limit as a single division. All cjrrent member clubs have floodlights enclosed grounds and a host of facilities which has resulted in a lot of spend. A good example is Strathspey Th a few years back a north junior club with a picket fence rou d the pitch. Now a fully enclosed ground eith stand and floodlights. My point is that expansion in the north requires a number of clubs to commit to make a HL2 viable and they will have to spend money upgrading facilities at a basic level. Theyre just isnt th support or money in this area to make it happen in the short term. So no the HL is not a closed shop.

My point was, rightly or wrongly, they are opposed to the north Juniors simply being bolted on as a feeder league. I understand about the money, but there are ways to allow the league to evolve. Ie only licensed clubs can go up to the HL or go up and get a fixed period to make improvements.

[Cyclizine]

There's no opposition per se to further clubs joining the HFL, it's in the constitution: interested clubs may apply at the AGM. Yes, the league has not actively encouraged applicants, but they've not actively discouraged them.

The pyramid is stretched very thin in the north, we have a fifth of the population, but technically half of the pyramid - this is clearly not sustainable, but is a relic of the number of licenced clubs in the north v south. The geography of the region makes an all encompassing Division 2 difficult. The league is already very Aberdeen-centric, to the detriment of many Highland and Moray teams. Some sort of formal structure below would be welcome, but I wonder if it would be better regionalised à la EoSFL and SoSFL.

[cmontheloknow]

11 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

There's no opposition per se to further clubs joining the HFL, it's in the constitution: interested clubs may apply at the AGM. Yes, the league has not actively encouraged applicants, but they've not actively discouraged them.

The pyramid is stretched very thin in the north, we have a fifth of the population, but technically half of the pyramid - this is clearly not sustainable, but is a relic of the number of licenced clubs in the north v south. The geography of the region makes an all encompassing Division 2 difficult. The league is already very Aberdeen-centric, to the detriment of many Highland and Moray teams. Some sort of formal structure below would be welcome, but I wonder if it would be better regionalised à la EoSFL and SoSFL.

Apart from Banks o' Dee - in 2009 admitting three sides much poorer onfield (2 from a lower division, one that dodged the drop on goal difference) and all with poorer facilities - none of the others had seats (or lights?), Strathspey's ground as alluded to up the thread was very basic.

[Jambo'ness]

4 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Yeah, Junior Football is a brand and like I said it's a brand that only has any traction in the West. Following the moves in the East showing they don't care a jot about the name or history and the fact that the SJFA North Region has been so disconnected from the discussion that they could resign from the SJFA and  rebrand themselves the North of Scotland Football League, no one would bat an eye.

Clydebank in terms of the support they can call upon are one of the biggest clubs in the West Region. If they had been in the East or North it would have caused much more of a reaction, but in the West it's been largely brushed off as them never really being a Junior club in the first place.

From the inception of the Lowland League, the SJFA could have shaped the rest of the pyramid in their image and tucked in the EoSFL, SoSFL & NCFL at the bottom of their structure. The SJFA would of lived on, but now it's done. The EoSFL's won out in the East and a WoSFL is coming in the West.

You make it sound like a war.  It's all FOOTBALL.  History is important but you can't keep living in the past.

Maybe if TJ at the top had "cared a jot" about the East region as he does about the West, things may have been different.  Now progressive football clubs from all areas are looking to evolve.

 

[Cyclizine]

3 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

Apart from Banks o' Dee - in 2009 admitting three sides much poorer onfield (2 from a lower division, one that dodged the drop on goal difference) and all with poorer facilities - none of the others had seats (or lights?), Strathspey's ground as alluded to up the thread was very basic.

 A Highland team was always going to be admitted, Badenoch and Strathspey was a relatively untapped area with potential - that's not materialised. Turriff, similarly. Formartine, I don't know. The rumour that the rest of the league voted against Banks o' Dee is probably true, but then Banks o' Dee didn't turn up to the meeting where the clubs were supposed to give their presentations, so it's not that surprising... In any case, the constitution has changed so that teams can apply at the AGM. Yes, that doesn't guarantee admission, but I think a licenced team being turned down would be unlikely, the HFL would not wish to challenge the SFA.

[.Stuart.]

Taken from the Kilwinning Rangers FB page.


On Friday night we chatted about the current situation in the East with the SJFA and rumours of upto 7 teams leaving the Junior game, new information has been provided by Kelty, it might not be 100% accurate but it's worth sharing, also Kelty have announced an increase in support even though they tend to win every match 10 nil, which was something that was raised at the meeting.

The East of Scotland have offered to start a West Division should there be interest, we've been informed that 5 Super Premier teams are currently interested

From Kelty
What does the East of Scotland Football League have to offer?

• Membership of EOSFL which confirms acceptance of and commitment to the pyramid system thereby satisfying a mandatory requirement of being granted a Club Licence. SJFA - No
• Automatic entry to the Scottish Cup for Champion Club irrespective of licencing status which will generate a minimum income in excess of £3,000 SJFA - YES
• 3 ways of Scottish Cup Entry, EOS & SOS League Champions, Alex Jack Cup Winner, Any Licenced Club SJFA - No
• £3,000 Funding towards ground improvements available to all un-licenced clubs looking to gain their SFA Licence. SJFA - No
• Up to £10,000 funding as an EOS club available from Scottish Football Partnership towards ground improvements. SJFA - No
• Our ambition is to have all Members licenced as soon as possible and thereby automatically in the Scottish Cup every year. SJFA - No
• Very likely more promotion places will be available to enter the Lowland League from Tier 6. SJFA - No
• Depending on interest from that area a possible West Of Scotland division would be looked at for tier 6. SJFA - Yes
• SFA Sports First Aid courses at heavily discounted rates (or free of charge). SFA Licence compliant. SJFA - No
• All clubs supplied with a defibrillator and associated training. SFA Licence compliant. SJFA - No
• Bespoke personalised first aid bag. SJFA - No
• Personal Accident and Liability insurance incl. player to player liability paid for by the League. SFA Licence compliant. SJFA - No (EOS supply all 3 insurances that pass Licence criteria)
• Match balls and training balls supplied each season. SJFA - Yes (Matchballs only)
• Coaching courses at heavily discounted rates (or free of charge) up to C Licence level. SJFA - Unsure
• Prize money for those Clubs finishing in the top four in the league. SJFA - Yes
• A sound organisational structure with fixtures issued on a seasonal basis. SJFA - No
• In combination with the Scottish Lowland League and the South of Scotland League an U20 development league for the development of a player pathway. SJFA - No
• Automatic entry for the U20 team into the Scottish Youth Cup. SJFA - No

LOWLAND LEAGUE (added to above)
• As it stands winner goes into a play off for promotion to SPFL. SJFA - No
• Winner gets automatic entry into the Betfred Cup Group Stage, £17,000 minimum prize money, guaranteed 2 home matches in group also. SJFA - No
• Top 4 qualify for Irn Bru Cup, minimum £3,000 Prize money. SJFA - No
• Up to £20,000 funding as a LL club available from Scottish Football Partnership towards ground improvements. SJFA - No

SJFA
• Scottish Junior Cup, £8,000 Prize money for winner . Tier 5/6 No
• West region setup although It’s not part of the pyramid. Tier 5/6 No
• Local and regional rivalries built over decades. Tier 5/6 In some cases No but will have as it evolves

Happy to be corrected on anything here but when you see it written like this it’s shocking the way the SJFA have mismanaged the grade for their member clubs. These innovative and progressional rewards and solid structure of being part of the pyramid and the advantages that went with it was available to all Junior clubs, pity the SJFA chose not to engage.

If the SJFA had canvassed their member clubs with all this information on what being part of the pyramid could offer a lot more would I’m sure have wanted to look at integrating as 1 through the SJFA, none of this research was shared with a pros and cons approach out of what now seems like snobbery, scandalous really.

It’s at the stage now where it’s either over to the SJFA clubs to take matters into their own hands or put your clubs future and trust in the guys running the SJFA.

*this information might not be accrurate and has been copied from another source

[FairWeatherFan]

27 minutes ago, Jambo'ness said:

You make it sound like a war.  It's all FOOTBALL.  History is important but you can't keep living in the past.

Maybe if TJ at the top had "cared a jot" about the East region as he does about the West, things may have been different.  Now progressive football clubs from all areas are looking to evolve.

Reiterating the point that Junior name is a brand and not a grade because it only matters in the West bears little resemblance to anything like a war.

I'd also say TJ has cared about the East Region since all the moves from the SJFA has been maintaining the East & West at the same level, from the Lowland Superleague idea through to being set at Tier 5 or6.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Taken from the Kilwinning Rangers FB page.


On Friday night we chatted about the current situation in the East with the SJFA and rumours of upto 7 teams leaving the Junior game, new information has been provided by Kelty, it might not be 100% accurate but it's worth sharing, also Kelty have announced an increase in support even though they tend to win every match 10 nil, which was something that was raised at the meeting.

The East of Scotland have offered to start a West Division should there be interest, we've been informed that 5 Super Premier teams are currently interested

From Kelty
What does the East of Scotland Football League have to offer?

• Membership of EOSFL which confirms acceptance of and commitment to the pyramid system thereby satisfying a mandatory requirement of being granted a Club Licence. SJFA - No
• Automatic entry to the Scottish Cup for Champion Club irrespective of licencing status which will generate a minimum income in excess of £3,000 SJFA - YES
• 3 ways of Scottish Cup Entry, EOS & SOS League Champions, Alex Jack Cup Winner, Any Licenced Club SJFA - No
• £3,000 Funding towards ground improvements available to all un-licenced clubs looking to gain their SFA Licence. SJFA - No
• Up to £10,000 funding as an EOS club available from Scottish Football Partnership towards ground improvements. SJFA - No
• Our ambition is to have all Members licenced as soon as possible and thereby automatically in the Scottish Cup every year. SJFA - No
• Very likely more promotion places will be available to enter the Lowland League from Tier 6. SJFA - No
• Depending on interest from that area a possible West Of Scotland division would be looked at for tier 6. SJFA - Yes
• SFA Sports First Aid courses at heavily discounted rates (or free of charge). SFA Licence compliant. SJFA - No
• All clubs supplied with a defibrillator and associated training. SFA Licence compliant. SJFA - No
• Bespoke personalised first aid bag. SJFA - No
• Personal Accident and Liability insurance incl. player to player liability paid for by the League. SFA Licence compliant. SJFA - No (EOS supply all 3 insurances that pass Licence criteria)
• Match balls and training balls supplied each season. SJFA - Yes (Matchballs only)
• Coaching courses at heavily discounted rates (or free of charge) up to C Licence level. SJFA - Unsure
• Prize money for those Clubs finishing in the top four in the league. SJFA - Yes
• A sound organisational structure with fixtures issued on a seasonal basis. SJFA - No
• In combination with the Scottish Lowland League and the South of Scotland League an U20 development league for the development of a player pathway. SJFA - No
• Automatic entry for the U20 team into the Scottish Youth Cup. SJFA - No

LOWLAND LEAGUE (added to above)
• As it stands winner goes into a play off for promotion to SPFL. SJFA - No
• Winner gets automatic entry into the Betfred Cup Group Stage, £17,000 minimum prize money, guaranteed 2 home matches in group also. SJFA - No
• Top 4 qualify for Irn Bru Cup, minimum £3,000 Prize money. SJFA - No
• Up to £20,000 funding as a LL club available from Scottish Football Partnership towards ground improvements. SJFA - No

SJFA
• Scottish Junior Cup, £8,000 Prize money for winner . Tier 5/6 No
• West region setup although It’s not part of the pyramid. Tier 5/6 No
• Local and regional rivalries built over decades. Tier 5/6 In some cases No but will have as it evolves

Happy to be corrected on anything here but when you see it written like this it’s shocking the way the SJFA have mismanaged the grade for their member clubs. These innovative and progressional rewards and solid structure of being part of the pyramid and the advantages that went with it was available to all Junior clubs, pity the SJFA chose not to engage.

If the SJFA had canvassed their member clubs with all this information on what being part of the pyramid could offer a lot more would I’m sure have wanted to look at integrating as 1 through the SJFA, none of this research was shared with a pros and cons approach out of what now seems like snobbery, scandalous really.

It’s at the stage now where it’s either over to the SJFA clubs to take matters into their own hands or put your clubs future and trust in the guys running the SJFA.

*this information might not be accrurate and has been copied from another source

The financial info and perks of the eosl etc are accurate.

[Jambo'ness]

5 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Reiterating the point that Junior name is a brand and not a grade because it only matters in the West bears little resemblance to anything like a war.

I'd also say TJ has cared about the East Region since all the moves from the SJFA has been maintaining the East & West at the same level, from the Lowland Superleague idea through to being set at Tier 5 or6.

You go on about this "brand".  If I was the marketing director of any company with a "brand", I would have expected to be sacked by now if I acted as the SJFA does with its "brand"

[lithgierose]

7 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

The financial info and perks of the eosl etc are accurate.

Some clubs in the east will still leave it to late,to enter at a decent level.

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, Jambo'ness said:

You go on about this "brand".  If I was the marketing director of any company with a "brand", I would have expected to be sacked by now if I acted as the SJFA does with its "brand"

That's why it's dying and carries no weight outwith its strongest market.

[.Stuart.]

If junior fitba is a ‘brand’ then it’s Smartprice.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

If junior fitba is a ‘brand’ then it’s Smartprice.

Happyshopper