Junior football, what is the future?

[FairWeatherFan]

29 minutes ago, Glenconner said:

Has anybody asked what many of the Seniors think of this? Most of them are going mental over the Old Firm Colts never mind the thought of 160 Junior teams joining them.

Doubt most of them would mind. There's only about 90 SFA club members, 42 have their spot in the SPFL. Another 34 are in the HFL or LFL so have a head start over Junior clubs.

Since the Junior Superleague champions already get Scottish Cup entry nothing changes there unless Junior clubs get licenced. The majority of Junior clubs won't be able to licenced for a while, which played a part in Craigroyston & Easthouses moving to the Junior grade.

Even if all 160 did get licenced, the SFA payments you get would only go down to a third. This won't effect the SPFL clubs deeply enough to prevent change I imagine, as they profit more from the SPFL prize money than the SFA's.

[Glenconner]

28 minutes ago, garrellburn said:

It won't be anywhere near 160, my guess would be about a quarter of existing clubs at most.  Many might revert to amateur status which is what they effectively are anyway.

Out of curiosity Garrellburn, where do you see Kilsyth Rangers fitting in, in a pyramid set up?

[cmontheloknow]

52 minutes ago, Glenconner said:

Out of curiosity Garrellburn, where do you see Kilsyth Rangers fitting in, in a pyramid set up?

If for arguments sake the WoS senior league was formed and the Juniors all came along, it would look like the present West Super Premier-  so Kilsyth would probably be right where they are just now?

The way some folk argue against the pyramid, it's as if every club is going to be replacing Cowdenbeath in SPFL League 2...

Edited January 20, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[Burnie_man]

21 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

If for arguments sake the WoS senior league was formed and the Juniors all came along, it would look like the present West Super Premier-  so Kilsyth would probably be right where they are just now?

The way some folk argue against the pyramid, it's as if every club is going to be replacing Cowdenbeath in SPFL League 2...

Spot on, as I keep saying for the vast majority of Junior clubs, joining the Pyramid would mean next to no change in the short to medium term.

[fan of the juniors]

Done a poll on Our Facebook page to gauge the level of support for or against moving into the pyramid system . Most comments were pro leaving but only if we all left en masse . Here’s the result

 

[Garret Deasy]

On 17/01/2018 at 05:21, San Starko Rover said:

Ok so there seems to be lots of heated debate here with the odd insult in both directions. Mostly those in favour of a pyramid feel skeptics are holding it back and those skeptics feel the ones in favour are insulting their established leagues.

 

Since I’m bored, trying to save cash and think a full pyramid is the future (genuinely intrigued to see how some of the Juniors would do) I’ve had a look at the leagues and propose a solution using the existing SJFA pyramid as a template. Don’t get too excited as this would involve the SFA, SJFA etc sitting down talking and doing what’s best for our game (no laughing at the back)

 

Firstly the HL/LL are established so we need to look at Tier 6 although I would change the HL/LL boundary to match the Juniors East/North as I think it’s a better one with Dundee in the East not the North. I also propose we make HL/LL/North/East/West all 16 team leagues but this is obviously open to debate

 

North

 

We form a feeder league to HL. Make the HL 16 teams to match the LL merge the 14 North Junior Premier with the 2 HL teams and add the NCL below as a regional divisions on the same level as North Division One East and West call it Caledonian League One. Open up the bottom of these leagues for Saturday Amateur leagues to feed in to it.

 

West

 

Again 16 team leagues from my understanding the SoS barring a few teams is fairly week but as established SFA members we can’t just bypass them all as it would be insulting. SoS is 15 teams so take the bottom 10 and form D&G league below WSFD this leaves their 5 best clubs, take the top 2 and merge them with the WSPD adding two from the WSFD to make 16. Add the remaining 3 to the WSFD to make 15 and promote one more from your CDD1 or AD1 to make 16. With only 5 SoS teams joining two West Divisions hopefully the travel problem would be negligible. Then open up the bottom to Amateur leagues to feed in.

 

East

 

ESL and EPL are already 16 and the EoS is stronger than SoS So I suggest the top 4 EoS join the ESL with 4 dropping down at each tier. The next 4 join the EPL again with 4 more dropping this gives 16 ESL 16 EPL with 41 teams left over for Tier 8, I would suggest 3 regions done by geographic location North/Central/South and as with the other open up the bottom to Amateurs to feed in.

 

I’m sure some will disagree but in my opinion this would keep the junior leagues as close to what they are while adding the EoS/SoS/NCL to form a fully integrated pyramid without overly insulting any teams.

 

Cup wise

Scottish Cup all licensed teams eligible to join, Glenconner made a valid point in dilution of prize money which is a fair point. I’d have qualifying rounds which while they wouldn’t have prize money the SFA would give travel budgets to ensure teams are not out of pocket undoubtedly some Non league teams would make round one and then get the payday as they progress, happens in FA cup every year down South.

 

Junior Cup. I’m not a Juniors fan but am well aware of how highly you guys prize the Junior cup and its history. I’d bring it along with you and have it as Non league cup (call it Junior cup if that’s important from a traditional point) and include all teams from HL/LL down more teams can only improve it and if the SFA backed it perhaps a decent sponsor for prize money and maybe BBC Alba could televise some rounds.

 

Anyway just my thoughts. Feel free to disagree, it would be a boring world if we all thought the same.

 

Intriguing.

Given the assumptions, generalisations and wishful thinking I am sure you should be getting a phone call from President Donald Trump soon. I am convinced you could be the man who organises his Mexican wall. By Easter.

 

[San Starko Rover]

Intriguing.
Given the assumptions, generalisations and wishful thinking I am sure you should be getting a phone call from President Donald Trump soon. I am convinced you could be the man who organises his Mexican wall. By Easter.
 

What an intelligent and thought provoking counter argument to my idea. I especially like the points you make about how you disagree with my opinion and then add your own ideas on what would be a better way to go. I’m sure your Post will add much to the subject being debated. Thanks for sharing I hope you’ll continue to further the discussion with your insight.

[Robert James]

21 hours ago, San Starko Rover said:

 

Hadn’t heard linlithgow and Bo’Ness we’re moving end of season is that official? I know Bo’Ness said they were but hadn’t specified when last I saw. Saw someone mention a possible WoS league with Colt teams. Have any West Juniors been approached outside the BSC email? Personally I’m against Colt teams as they bring nothing as proved by the challenge cup where the crowds were terrible and both OF teams were dumped at round 1. I’d much rather see Junior teams join than Colt teams.

A new WoSL for next season , with Colts teams in it ?

No one has responded on this forum,  from any Junior or Amateur League clubs suggesting that this is true, so it must be "fake news"  (to quote President Trump)!  

It is however interesting to hear that  (allegedly) 2 west super league clubs are actively considering a move to the pyramid.  Or is that more "fake news" ?

[San Starko Rover]

A new WoSL for next season , with Colts teams in it ?
No one has responded on this forum,  from any Junior or Amateur League clubs suggesting that this is true, so it must be "fake news"  (to quote President Trump)!  
It is however interesting to hear that  (allegedly) 2 west super league clubs are actively considering a move to the pyramid.  Or is that more "fake news" ?

I think you’re probably right about it being “fake news” if none of the Junior team fans on here have heard any whispers (sure some of you will have personal involvement in your clubs) probably just Old Firm fans putting 2+2 to get 5 with regards to Colt teams. I definitely think a WoS league should be set up along with NoS so teams who wish to move have an realistic option. Unfair for West and North teams in the current set up but setting it up by next season would certainly be a stretch. Nothing would surprise me with the SFA though. Sadly as always the SFA rushed the lowland league through and had no vision for the next stage of the potential pyramid.

[Robert James]

On 15/01/2018 at 14:20, Dreghorn said:

The Simple fact is that the East Seniors are getting stronger and the Juniors in general are now weaker.

This will continue with a steady trickle of juniors moving “up”.

As a junior fan all of my life I regret what has happened but see a properly organised pyramid system as the only way forward.  It will only take one or two of the larger clubs eg Bo’ness or Bonnyrigg to jump and what then is left of the East Superleague for the 2 or 3 clubs which are left capable of winning it.

Alas the committees will continue to oppose it in 90% of Junior clubs most of which will either be defunct or simply running youth sides.

Even the so called Holy Grail competition can’t attract 1000 fans for its Semi Finals, even though the best competition in Scottish Football.

IMO Bonnyrigg will never seek to join the pyramid, as the club wants to remain as a 'king of the (east) castle' . I recently spoke to one of its regular fans (a taxi driver) who told me that the 'committee members' are very strongly opposed to the pyramid, and wish it had been strangled at birth. 

I anticipate that if the present 'drift' from junior to senior status continues, the SFA will change the rules about participation in the Scottish Cup, by excluding  ALL non-pyramid clubs, regardless as to whether they are Super League champions, Junior/Amateur Cup winners, or current 'senior' clubs with historic SFA membership. What is preventing the SFA from doing so, is the absence of the right to promotion in the North, where Banks and Golspie remain outside the pyramid.  

[Che Dail]

30 minutes ago, Robert James said:

IMO Bonnyrigg will never seek to join the pyramid, as the club wants to remain as a 'king of the (east) castle'  

If Linlithgow and Bo'ness do leave the Junior grade they won't have to worry too much about being displaced.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Che Dail

[Robert James]

7 hours ago, happy said:

If a W.O.S. or similar league isn't set up teams in the West have nowhere to go.The take it or leave it choice wasn't practical last year and still isn't today.

I agree it isn't practical TODAY.

But given SFA support,  a WoSL could be  created for 2019/20, if the West Super League clubs  decided collectively to  seek SFA approval to become a tier 6  feeder to the Lowland League. Thereafter ambitious clubs could get licensed and progress up the pyramid, and other WoSL clubs who don't seek promotion (and a licence), can remain at tier 6, continuing to play against their traditional rivals. 

Whilst contemplating a WoSL, have P&B devotees noticed that Third Lanark (Amateur) FC were champions of the Greater Glasgow Premier League Division 3 last season, and are currently top of Division 2, having played 10 and won 10 games. I wonder if this club has long/mid term pyramid aspirations ?

[Gimme]

Bonnyrigg got a taste of the promised land last season with the Scottish Cup exploits and the town came out in numbers to support them. Getting licenced means there is the potential for it to happen regularly, IMO it would be folly not to make the move.

[Che Dail]

11 minutes ago, Robert James said:

I agree it isn't practical TODAY.

But given SFA support,  a WoSL could be  created for 2019/20, if the West Super League clubs  decided collectively to  seek SFA approval to become a tier 6  feeder to the Lowland League. Thereafter ambitious clubs could get licensed and progress up the pyramid, and other WoSL clubs who don't seek promotion (and a licence), can remain at tier 6, continuing to play against their traditional rivals. 

Whilst contemplating a WoSL, have P&B devotees noticed that Third Lanark (Amateur) FC were champions of the Greater Glasgow Premier League Division 3 last season, and are currently top of Division 2, having played 10 and won 10 games. I wonder if this club has long/mid term pyramid aspirations ?

Why not start 2018/19?

14 or 16 teams out of how many...? 

[Hillonearth]

29 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Whilst contemplating a WoSL, have P&B devotees noticed that Third Lanark (Amateur) FC were champions of the Greater Glasgow Premier League Division 3 last season, and are currently top of Division 2, having played 10 and won 10 games. I wonder if this club has long/mid term pyramid aspirations ?

Every couple of years some self-publicist will pop up in the papers and outline their ambitions for the Thirds' resurrection, but so far it's invariably come to nothing. It's been a full 50 years since they folded and most of their former support are now either very old or very dead - it's difficult to see where new support would come from as the area they formerly drew it from is now demographically very different.

The biggest drawback is that virtually every proposal seems to involve the regeneration of the crumbling ruin that is Cathkin Park - it's almost certainly too far gone now to bring back to code...the council certainly aren't going to sink the amount of cash that would be required to do so in an area already well-served by sports facilities into what effectively is a few people's ego trip.

With the best will in the world, the Greater Glasgow's pretty low on the amateur pecking order...any team going straight from that environment to a semi-professional one would almost certainly find themselves well out of their depth - I imagine any amateur side with ambitions of  progressing further would want to spend a couple of years in one of the higher-rated ammy leagues first.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Hillonearth

[FairWeatherFan]

26 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Why not start 2018/19?

14 or 16 teams out of how many...? 

Plenty of time to get something arranged for next season. Just look at how quickly the Lowland League was set up having been a drawing board idea for a year or so, and then consider how easily clubs jumped at the chance without much regard for the leagues they left behind.

The Colts entering the pyramid for 2018-19 was something that the likes of Malky Mackay were talking about in the summer, WoSFL was something that took hold off of the back of BSC Glasgow's email. Anything that does get set up for next season looks to be for the benefit of clubs already in the pyramid rather than those that should be.

[kenny131]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Plenty of time to get something arranged for next season. Just look at how quickly the Lowland League was set up having been a drawing board idea for a year or so, and then consider how easily clubs jumped at the chance without much regard for the leagues they left behind.

The Colts entering the pyramid for 2018-19 was something that the likes of Malky Mackay were talking about in the summer, WoSFL was something that took hold off of the back of BSC Glasgow's email. Anything that does get set up for next season looks to be for the benefit of clubs already in the pyramid rather than those that should be.

Talks have taken place about the formation of a new WOS league incorporating the pyramid. It's going to happen either start of next season or the 1 after. The question will be what's the ground criteria and who wants in.

[archieb]

Absolutely no need to form a new WoS Senior League, just designate next season's West Junior Premiership as having the equivalent status.

After all who else is it supposed to be accommodating other than OF Colts and BSC reserves? Give me a break!

[Glenconner]

54 minutes ago, kenny131 said:

Talks have taken place about the formation of a new WOS league incorporating the pyramid. It's going to happen either start of next season or the 1 after. The question will be what's the ground criteria and who wants in.

Be funny as hell when the SFA see the attempts at a fixture list and winter shutdowns that can last three months.

[Sergeant Wilson]

8 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Just look at how quickly the Lowland League was set up 

That is a big part of the problems that still exist. It wasn't well executed.