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Junior football, what is the future?


Burnie_man

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34 minutes ago, Glenconner said:

What happens to the glorified/kiddie on boys club with zero support and no ground when the Juniors brush past them. 

What league did the phantom clubs play in pre the Lowland League?

Did they even exist?

Wow, such an ignorant and biased post.

  1. As part of a pyramid if relegated they would be relegated to the appropriate league.
  2. Who is to say the Juniors would brush past them?
  3. "phantom clubs"? are you 12?

The level of debate from the "Evening Times Cup" above all else people on here is shockingly bad.

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1 hour ago, Glenconner said:

What happens to the glorified/kiddie on boys club with zero support and no ground when the Juniors brush past them. 

What league did the phantom clubs play in pre the Lowland League?

Did they even exist?

You really need to let go of your anger and loathing, you’ll feel better for it. :)

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There is no difference between BSC Glasgow, Cumbernauld Colts, Bonnyton Thistle and Gartcairn / Rossvale. Edusport a different kettle of fish but they entered the pyramid at the lowest level and have won promotion to where they are on merit - by winning their league.

In the case of BSC, there were a boys club, as were Bonnyton (with a good U21 side that has produced a number of great Juniors, past and present). Cumbernauld Colts did have an adult amateur side (still do?). Rossvale likewise plus 21s. Gartcairn a youth side that gained the adult junior team.

Edited by cmontheloknow
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28 minutes ago, Glenconner said:

Phantom leagues made up in your bedroom.

You don't even appear to have a basic grasp of how the pyramid would work!!!!!!!!!!! - think about it, even based on your post earlier you must surely be able to see what would happen if the likes of BSC were relegated from the LL. Or do you want the pyramid explained to you?

 

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On 1/13/2018 at 20:04, TheLad said:


3) why do people think that Scotland NEEDS the juniors to have a successful pyramid in place? Any changes that include the juniors will need to be instigated by the juniors. Scottish football doesn't need the juniors and if it stopped tomorrow, my guess is that the impact would not be devastating. Therefore junior clubs either accept the limitations and circumstances or move to the pyramid.

It's not so much that Scotland needs the juniors to have a successful pyramid in place, but that the pyramid would be more successful if it encompassed all grades of football so that it would be fully representative of the nation, fulfilling the principle that a club from anywhere can potentially work their way from bottom to top on merit via promotions within one league structure. 

I happen to think that many clubs in the juniors have plenty to offer in terms of their fan bases, and it always seems odd to me that certain communities and towns are not represented at a senior level.  Some, I feel, would be able to support full-time football given the right conditions, and I take the number of full-time clubs as a barometer of the health of the game in this country. 

22 hours ago, Dreghorn said:

The Simple fact is that the East Seniors are getting stronger and the Juniors in general are now weaker.

This will continue with a steady trickle of juniors moving “up”.

As a junior fan all of my life I regret what has happened but see a properly organised pyramid system as the only way forward.  It will only take one or two of the larger clubs eg Bo’ness or Bonnyrigg to jump and what then is left of the East Superleague for the 2 or 3 clubs which are left capable of winning it.

Alas the committees will continue to oppose it in 90% of Junior clubs most of which will either be defunct or simply running youth sides.

Even the so called Holy Grail competition can’t attract 1000 fans for its Semi Finals, even though the best competition in Scottish Football.

I was wondering if Bonnyrigg would make the move, though: from their statement last year it seemed as though they wouldn't be joining the East of Scotland League until they were guaranteed that they would be accepted into the Lowland League if they won the EoSFL. 

It seemed odd to me, as surely after winning the EoSFL they'd only need to come through a play off against the best team in the SoSFL in order to be promoted, but perhaps they were referring to a scenario where a team from the HL was promoted to the SPFL in the place of an SPFL team dropping into the LL, and so there might not be any promotion to the LL in that season due to the additional team to be catered for. 

Anyway, it looked as though they were waiting for a change in the LL promotion process before committing to moving to the seniors, due to fear of being 'stuck' in the EoSFL?

http://www.bonnyriggrosefc.co.uk/teams/118321/news/club-statement-in-response-to-falkirk-herald-artic-1780028.html

 

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The pyramid needs the Juniors for the simple reason that a pyramid narrows towards the top and gets wider towards the bottom as there are increasingly more teams at each level the lower you go.

What we have is:

12

10

10

10

18 / 16

15 / 13

That is not a pyramid, it's an inverted anvil.

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1 hour ago, RabidAl said:

Anyway, it looked as though they were waiting for a change in the LL promotion process before committing to moving to the seniors, due to fear of being 'stuck' in the EoSFL?

http://www.bonnyriggrosefc.co.uk/teams/118321/news/club-statement-in-response-to-falkirk-herald-artic-1780028.html

 

Which is strange as the process only requires that the club must be licensed and that you win a play-off to go up - I can't see any other barriers.

So is it reasonable to assume that if this can be clarified then Bonnyrigg would reconsider the move?

I believe there are moves towards 2 promotion places being made available starting from next season.

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20 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Which is strange as the process only requires that the club must be licensed and that you win a play-off to go up - I can't see any other barriers.

So is it reasonable to assume that if this can be clarified then Bonnyrigg would reconsider the move?

I believe there are moves towards 2 promotion places being made available starting from next season.

I think you are reading too much into this statement.  When Bonnyrigg were looking to get their licence approx. 18 months ago, the thinking was that they would be able to stay in the juniors set-up, similar to Lithgae.  Moving to eos wasn't on the cards regardless of promotion to lowland league or not.

 

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5 minutes ago, db11 said:

I think you are reading too much into this statement.  When Bonnyrigg were looking to get their licence approx. 18 months ago, the thinking was that they would be able to stay in the juniors set-up, similar to Lithgae.  Moving to eos wasn't on the cards regardless of promotion to lowland league or not.

 

Understood, thanks.   

Although in the last 5 years it has never been the case that junior clubs could get a licence without commiting to the pyramid, why would they think differently?

Sounds like they wanted to play in the Scottish Cup every year and take the advantages the licence brings without leaving the comfort of their current environment.  Understandable, to a degree, from their point of view but not good for everyone else.

 

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Deliberately not posting over the weekend, as regardless of what changes we may wish for, commenting on and discussing actual games is what P&B is best at. 

Coming back I see the Bexiteers and Remainers still moaning on. Sorry I meant Pyramiddeneers and everyone else.

Those supporting senior clubs are nearly eloquent on why junior teams should jump to the pyramidden. Why are they arsed? Don't they have enough to do helping shore up their own clubs, especially those who have experienced multiple administrations, liquidations, fly boys running their clubs in the past, fly boys running their clubs today.  Signing up the wee laddies across Scotland to follow their dream, only to be abused, then turfed out while the governing body is still totally clueless about why they should accept any responsibility for a mess of their own making.

http://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=10885&i=99602#ScotParlOR   This has been running and after 7 years the well paid idiots of the SFA and SPFL still do not know the questions that should be asked never mind the grown up answers.

Back to the junior game. It is different from the senior game as primarily supporter owned clubs, with democracy as the essence of what the junior game does.

These principles are undermined when it is accepted by the junior clubs that the secretary can not just draw a salary but have the personal benefits thrown at him from a cosy relationship with the SFA . The junior game has allowed itself to be merely a sop to SFA.  

And those on  committees when presented to on some initiatives that would help junior clubs generally, the organisation offering the help is asked after the meetings (in confidence) to come to their clubs to discuss how they could take advantage of the offers.  The total lack of transparency of such meetings, publication of meaningful minutes is the perfect environment for people to joining committees for the benefit of their own club, and if lucky some personal benefits. 

(Have edited this to cut out direct references and examples, but happy to provide when it helps). 

Edited by Garret Deasy
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1 hour ago, Garret Deasy said:

Deliberately not posting over the weekend, as regardless of what changes we may wish for, commenting on and discussing actual games is what P&B is best at. 

Coming back I see the Bexiteers and Remainers still moaning on. Sorry I meant Pyramiddeneers and everyone else.

Those supporting senior clubs are nearly eloquent on why junior teams should jump to the pyramidden. Why are they arsed? Don't they have enough to do helping shore up their own clubs, especially those who have experienced multiple administrations, liquidations, fly boys running their clubs in the past, fly boys running their clubs today.  Signing up the wee laddies across Scotland to follow their dream, only to be abused, then turfed out while the governing body is still totally clueless about why they should accept any responsibility for a mess of their own making.

http://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=10885&i=99602#ScotParlOR   This has been running and after 7 years the well paid idiots of the SFA and SPFL still do not know the questions that should be asked never mind the grown up answers.

Back to the junior game. It is different from the senior game as primarily supporter owned clubs, with democracy as the essence of what the junior game does.

These principles are undermined when it is accepted by the junior clubs that the secretary can not just draw a salary but have the personal benefits thrown at him from a cosy relationship with the SFA . The junior game has allowed itself to be merely a sop to SFA.  

And those on  committees when presented to on some initiatives that would help junior clubs generally, the organisation offering the help is asked after the meetings (in confidence) to come to their clubs to discuss how they could take advantage of the offers.  The total lack of transparency of such meetings, publication of meaningful minutes is the perfect environment for people to joining committees for the benefit of their own club, and if lucky some personal benefits. 

(Have edited this to cut out direct references and examples, but happy to provide when it helps). 

Sounds like someone who has been there and done that with SJFA committees........

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8 hours ago, Garret Deasy said:

Those supporting senior clubs are nearly eloquent on why junior teams should jump to the pyramidden. Why are they arsed? Don't they have enough to do helping shore up their own clubs, especially those who have experienced multiple administrations, liquidations, fly boys running their clubs in the past, fly boys running their clubs today

Yep, all senior chairmen are evil moneygrabbing b*****ds eager to run their clubs into the ground to make a few quid selling off their parks... 

Quote

Back to the junior game. It is different from the senior game as primarily supporter owned clubs, with democracy as the essence of what the junior game does.

You seem to be conflating 'senior' with 'member of the SPFL'. Buckie Thistle are senior; so are Eyemouth Utd, Civil Service and Threave Rovers. Are these not democratic?

Quote

.And those on  committees when presented to on some initiatives that would help junior clubs generally, the organisation offering the help is asked after the meetings (in confidence) to come to their clubs to discuss how they could take advantage of the offers.  The total lack of transparency of such meetings, publication of meaningful minutes is the perfect environment for people to joining committees for the benefit of their own club, and if lucky some personal benefits. 

My eyes are bleeding, what does this even mean?

Quote

(Have edited this to cut out direct references and examples, but happy to provide when it helps). 

Please do.

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Ok so there seems to be lots of heated debate here with the odd insult in both directions. Mostly those in favour of a pyramid feel skeptics are holding it back and those skeptics feel the ones in favour are insulting their established leagues.

 

Since I’m bored, trying to save cash and think a full pyramid is the future (genuinely intrigued to see how some of the Juniors would do) I’ve had a look at the leagues and propose a solution using the existing SJFA pyramid as a template. Don’t get too excited as this would involve the SFA, SJFA etc sitting down talking and doing what’s best for our game (no laughing at the back)

 

Firstly the HL/LL are established so we need to look at Tier 6 although I would change the HL/LL boundary to match the Juniors East/North as I think it’s a better one with Dundee in the East not the North. I also propose we make HL/LL/North/East/West all 16 team leagues but this is obviously open to debate

 

North

 

We form a feeder league to HL. Make the HL 16 teams to match the LL merge the 14 North Junior Premier with the 2 HL teams and add the NCL below as a regional divisions on the same level as North Division One East and West call it Caledonian League One. Open up the bottom of these leagues for Saturday Amateur leagues to feed in to it.

 

West

 

Again 16 team leagues from my understanding the SoS barring a few teams is fairly week but as established SFA members we can’t just bypass them all as it would be insulting. SoS is 15 teams so take the bottom 10 and form D&G league below WSFD this leaves their 5 best clubs, take the top 2 and merge them with the WSPD adding two from the WSFD to make 16. Add the remaining 3 to the WSFD to make 15 and promote one more from your CDD1 or AD1 to make 16. With only 5 SoS teams joining two West Divisions hopefully the travel problem would be negligible. Then open up the bottom to Amateur leagues to feed in.

 

East

 

ESL and EPL are already 16 and the EoS is stronger than SoS So I suggest the top 4 EoS join the ESL with 4 dropping down at each tier. The next 4 join the EPL again with 4 more dropping this gives 16 ESL 16 EPL with 41 teams left over for Tier 8, I would suggest 3 regions done by geographic location North/Central/South and as with the other open up the bottom to Amateurs to feed in.

 

I’m sure some will disagree but in my opinion this would keep the junior leagues as close to what they are while adding the EoS/SoS/NCL to form a fully integrated pyramid without overly insulting any teams.

 

Cup wise

Scottish Cup all licensed teams eligible to join, Glenconner made a valid point in dilution of prize money which is a fair point. I’d have qualifying rounds which while they wouldn’t have prize money the SFA would give travel budgets to ensure teams are not out of pocket undoubtedly some Non league teams would make round one and then get the payday as they progress, happens in FA cup every year down South.

 

Junior Cup. I’m not a Juniors fan but am well aware of how highly you guys prize the Junior cup and its history. I’d bring it along with you and have it as Non league cup (call it Junior cup if that’s important from a traditional point) and include all teams from HL/LL down more teams can only improve it and if the SFA backed it perhaps a decent sponsor for prize money and maybe BBC Alba could televise some rounds.

 

Anyway just my thoughts. Feel free to disagree, it would be a boring world if we all thought the same.

 

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4 hours ago, San Starko Rover said:

Ok so there seems to be lots of heated debate here with the odd insult in both directions. Mostly those in favour of a pyramid feel skeptics are holding it back and those skeptics feel the ones in favour are insulting their established leagues.

 

Since I’m bored, trying to save cash and think a full pyramid is the future (genuinely intrigued to see how some of the Juniors would do) I’ve had a look at the leagues and propose a solution using the existing SJFA pyramid as a template. Don’t get too excited as this would involve the SFA, SJFA etc sitting down talking and doing what’s best for our game (no laughing at the back)

 

Firstly the HL/LL are established so we need to look at Tier 6 although I would change the HL/LL boundary to match the Juniors East/North as I think it’s a better one with Dundee in the East not the North. I also propose we make HL/LL/North/East/West all 16 team leagues but this is obviously open to debate

 

North

 

We form a feeder league to HL. Make the HL 16 teams to match the LL merge the 14 North Junior Premier with the 2 HL teams and add the NCL below as a regional divisions on the same level as North Division One East and West call it Caledonian League One. Open up the bottom of these leagues for Saturday Amateur leagues to feed in to it.

 

West

 

Again 16 team leagues from my understanding the SoS barring a few teams is fairly week but as established SFA members we can’t just bypass them all as it would be insulting. SoS is 15 teams so take the bottom 10 and form D&G league below WSFD this leaves their 5 best clubs, take the top 2 and merge them with the WSPD adding two from the WSFD to make 16. Add the remaining 3 to the WSFD to make 15 and promote one more from your CDD1 or AD1 to make 16. With only 5 SoS teams joining two West Divisions hopefully the travel problem would be negligible. Then open up the bottom to Amateur leagues to feed in.

 

East

 

ESL and EPL are already 16 and the EoS is stronger than SoS So I suggest the top 4 EoS join the ESL with 4 dropping down at each tier. The next 4 join the EPL again with 4 more dropping this gives 16 ESL 16 EPL with 41 teams left over for Tier 8, I would suggest 3 regions done by geographic location North/Central/South and as with the other open up the bottom to Amateurs to feed in.

 

I’m sure some will disagree but in my opinion this would keep the junior leagues as close to what they are while adding the EoS/SoS/NCL to form a fully integrated pyramid without overly insulting any teams.

 

Cup wise

Scottish Cup all licensed teams eligible to join, Glenconner made a valid point in dilution of prize money which is a fair point. I’d have qualifying rounds which while they wouldn’t have prize money the SFA would give travel budgets to ensure teams are not out of pocket undoubtedly some Non league teams would make round one and then get the payday as they progress, happens in FA cup every year down South.

 

Junior Cup. I’m not a Juniors fan but am well aware of how highly you guys prize the Junior cup and its history. I’d bring it along with you and have it as Non league cup (call it Junior cup if that’s important from a traditional point) and include all teams from HL/LL down more teams can only improve it and if the SFA backed it perhaps a decent sponsor for prize money and maybe BBC Alba could televise some rounds.

 

Anyway just my thoughts. Feel free to disagree, it would be a boring world if we all thought the same.

 

Any suggestion for reorganisation of the West that does not take into account the West Juniors' impending reconstruction to 4 x 16 divisions is largely meaningless

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5 hours ago, San Starko Rover said:

Ok so there seems to be lots of heated debate here with the odd insult in both directions. Mostly those in favour of a pyramid feel skeptics are holding it back and those skeptics feel the ones in favour are insulting their established leagues.

 

Since I’m bored, trying to save cash and think a full pyramid is the future (genuinely intrigued to see how some of the Juniors would do) I’ve had a look at the leagues and propose a solution using the existing SJFA pyramid as a template. Don’t get too excited as this would involve the SFA, SJFA etc sitting down talking and doing what’s best for our game (no laughing at the back)

 

Firstly the HL/LL are established so we need to look at Tier 6 although I would change the HL/LL boundary to match the Juniors East/North as I think it’s a better one with Dundee in the East not the North. I also propose we make HL/LL/North/East/West all 16 team leagues but this is obviously open to debate

 

North

 

We form a feeder league to HL. Make the HL 16 teams to match the LL merge the 14 North Junior Premier with the 2 HL teams and add the NCL below as a regional divisions on the same level as North Division One East and West call it Caledonian League One. Open up the bottom of these leagues for Saturday Amateur leagues to feed in to it.

 

West

 

Again 16 team leagues from my understanding the SoS barring a few teams is fairly week but as established SFA members we can’t just bypass them all as it would be insulting. SoS is 15 teams so take the bottom 10 and form D&G league below WSFD this leaves their 5 best clubs, take the top 2 and merge them with the WSPD adding two from the WSFD to make 16. Add the remaining 3 to the WSFD to make 15 and promote one more from your CDD1 or AD1 to make 16. With only 5 SoS teams joining two West Divisions hopefully the travel problem would be negligible. Then open up the bottom to Amateur leagues to feed in.

 

East

 

ESL and EPL are already 16 and the EoS is stronger than SoS So I suggest the top 4 EoS join the ESL with 4 dropping down at each tier. The next 4 join the EPL again with 4 more dropping this gives 16 ESL 16 EPL with 41 teams left over for Tier 8, I would suggest 3 regions done by geographic location North/Central/South and as with the other open up the bottom to Amateurs to feed in.

 

I’m sure some will disagree but in my opinion this would keep the junior leagues as close to what they are while adding the EoS/SoS/NCL to form a fully integrated pyramid without overly insulting any teams.

 

Cup wise

Scottish Cup all licensed teams eligible to join, Glenconner made a valid point in dilution of prize money which is a fair point. I’d have qualifying rounds which while they wouldn’t have prize money the SFA would give travel budgets to ensure teams are not out of pocket undoubtedly some Non league teams would make round one and then get the payday as they progress, happens in FA cup every year down South.

 

Junior Cup. I’m not a Juniors fan but am well aware of how highly you guys prize the Junior cup and its history. I’d bring it along with you and have it as Non league cup (call it Junior cup if that’s important from a traditional point) and include all teams from HL/LL down more teams can only improve it and if the SFA backed it perhaps a decent sponsor for prize money and maybe BBC Alba could televise some rounds.

 

Anyway just my thoughts. Feel free to disagree, it would be a boring world if we all thought the same.

 

You must have been looking over my shoulder when you wrote this.

I did it almost the same way whilst creating a Football Manager 18 mod.

 

But as for the cups.

Scottish Cup fo rall licensed teams.

Would have League cup for tiers 1 to 3.

go back to a normal Challenge cup for tiers 3 and 4. (add winner of Junior cup if they havent already qualified) 

And Junior cup for tiers 5.

 

also each reagions -  Highland, Lowland East, Lowland West to have there own regional  cups.

 

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22 hours ago, Che Dail said:

Which is strange as the process only requires that the club must be licensed and that you win a play-off to go up - I can't see any other barriers.

So is it reasonable to assume that if this can be clarified then Bonnyrigg would reconsider the move?

I believe there are moves towards 2 promotion places being made available starting from next season.

Precisely what I thought.  I wondered if they had their wires crossed somewhere, as the statement doesn't make too much sense.  Hopefully the increase in promotion places does materialise to avoid just this type of scenario.

21 hours ago, db11 said:

I think you are reading too much into this statement.  When Bonnyrigg were looking to get their licence approx. 18 months ago, the thinking was that they would be able to stay in the juniors set-up, similar to Lithgae.  Moving to eos wasn't on the cards regardless of promotion to lowland league or not.

The statement refers specifically to the East of Scotland League and the promotion criteria, so I think you're mistaken there:

"However, some 12 months we were told that if we were to apply for a license we would need to join the EoS league and that there would be no guarantee that we would be accepted into the Lowland League if we won it. We didn't go public via the website/social media at the time because there was nothing to go public about. The decision was made at that time not to proceed with a license because of that criteria.

We are in the fortunate position that we could proceed with a license application as we believe we have pretty much everything in place to do so. However we would not do so based on the criteria outlined above..."

7 hours ago, San Starko Rover said:

Firstly the HL/LL are established so we need to look at Tier 6 although I would change the HL/LL boundary to match the Juniors East/North as I think it’s a better one with Dundee in the East not the North. I also propose we make HL/LL/North/East/West all 16 team leagues but this is obviously open to debate

It appears that the boundary is and always has been* at the border between Angus and Aberdeenshire.  56,4513N is where the North Esk runs into the North Sea, according to:

https://www.worldatlas.com/aatlas/findlatlong.htm

...it's about in a line with Little Brechin.

 

*The Highland Football League website section on the pyramid system, dated 10th June 2014, quotes the same latitude of 56,4513N...

http://www.highlandfootballleague.com/News/Item/434_The_Pyramid_System_and_how_it_affects_the_SHFL.aspx

...as is to be currently found in the SPFL Rules and Regulations, p.222:

https://spfl.co.uk/docs/067_324__therulesofthescottishprofessionalfootballleagueasat24july201_1502440056.pdf

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