Junior football, what is the future?

[GLESGABOY]

28 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

There was evidence 5 years ago when the SJFA surveyed its clubs.  The survey was ignored and has never been repeated as they wouldn't like the result.

How can TJ attend todays meeting without being armed with upto date data of what clubs would like to see and in what form. What is his negotiating position and who authorised him to go in with it?

Can you put up a summary of the evidence/results that you are referring to so that everyone can see what you`re using as the basis for your response?

[Burnie_man]

19 minutes ago, GLESGABOY said:

Can you put up a summary of the evidence/results that you are referring to so that everyone can see what you`re using as the basis for your response?

You tell me, you have access to the results.

There were two surveys from memory, one in which  20-30 clubs responded by saying they were interested in joining the Pyramid (one of them was my club, I filled in the survey), there was another which included the question along the lines of "in principle would you eventually like to play in the Scottish League" and again there was a significant positive response.

Neither of these surveys were followed up on. 

Maybe you can answer my last point since you have quoted me.

[GLESGABOY]

11 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

You tell me, you have access to the results.

There were two surveys from memory, one in which  20-30 clubs responded by saying they were interested in joining the Pyramid (one of them was my club, I filled in the survey), there was another which included the question along the lines of "in principle would you eventually like to play in the Scottish League" and again there was a significant positive response.

Neither of these surveys were followed up on. 

Maybe you can answer my last point since you have quoted me.

If I had the answers I wouldn`t be asking. That`s interesting though that you are at pains to point out you aren`t involved in your own club and yet there you are filling in surveys.... notwithstanding that the answer is you actually can`t or wont give a direct answer to my question. According to you, from circa 120 Junior clubs that received the survey you think that"20-30" replied they were interested in joining the pyramid. Given that you indicated on behalf of your own club that you would be interested in joining the pyramid it really begs the question , why haven`t your club done just that?

[GLESGABOY]

19 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

You tell me, you have access to the results.

There were two surveys from memory, one in which  20-30 clubs responded by saying they were interested in joining the Pyramid (one of them was my club, I filled in the survey), there was another which included the question along the lines of "in principle would you eventually like to play in the Scottish League" and again there was a significant positive response.

Neither of these surveys were followed up on. 

Maybe you can answer my last point since you have quoted me.

Sorry for the delay in replying there......me and the guys were just necking some brandy to wash down our working lunch...............

[Burnie_man]

15 minutes ago, GLESGABOY said:

If I had the answers I wouldn`t be asking. That`s interesting though that you are at pains to point out you aren`t involved in your own club and yet there you are filling in surveys.... notwithstanding that the answer is you actually can`t or wont give a direct answer to my question. According to you, from circa 120 Junior clubs that received the survey you think that"20-30" replied they were interested in joining the pyramid. Given that you indicated on behalf of your own club that you would be interested in joining the pyramid it really begs the question , why haven`t your club done just that?

Yes, I was on the committee, was delegate for the period under discussion (hence why I have a lot of knowledge of what went on) and was briefly Secretary.  As for a direct answer, have a look at the below link and in particular page 4

 http://nonleaguematters.co.uk/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=6299;guest=68405259

"Over 20 SJFA teams have expressed an interest to join the SHFL/LL and the pyramid structure"

I think the final number was 27. At the time, we expressed an interest. What the current thinking is I don't know, but I suspect it's not changed. My own thinking at the time was that a club like us (at the time struggling in the South Division) would not be in a position to make the move without being part of a wider move by the SJFA towards a Pyramid. We were in no position (ground wise or financially) to take the risk alone and had other priorities to deal with to progress the club, but we were supporters of the principal of Junior football integrating.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Burnie_man

[Burnie_man]

8 minutes ago, GLESGABOY said:

Sorry for the delay in replying there......me and the guys were just necking some brandy to wash down our working lunch...............

I look forward to you posting up the minutes shortly.

[GLESGABOY]

4 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I look forward to you posting up the minutes shortly.

The minutes are....... the lunch was superb as always. When the meetings over we`ll be retiring for cigars, no time for minutes...

[GLESGABOY]

5 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Yes, I was on the committee, was delegate for the period under discussion (hence why I have a lot of knowledge of what went on) and was briefly Secretary.  As for a direct answer, have a look at the below link and in particular page 4

 http://nonleaguematters.co.uk/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=6299;guest=68405259

"Over 20 SJFA teams have expressed an interest to join the SHFL/LL and the pyramid structure"

I think the final number was 27. At the time, we expressed an interest. What the current thinking is I don't know, but I suspect it's not changed. My own thinking at the time was that a club like us (at the time struggling in the South Division) would not be in a position to make the move without being part of a wider move by the SJFA towards a Pyramid. We were in no position (ground wise or financially) to take the risk and had other priorities to deal with to progress the club, but we were supporters of the principal of Junior football integrating.

So why do you need the SJFA to integrate en-masse if the offering is that good and your club is in favour? Interesting also that you`ve used the word RISK...

[Burnie_man]

So why do you need the SJFA to integrate en-masse if the offering is that good and your club is in favour? Interesting also that you`ve used the word RISK...

 

Because I believe - as do many others - that the Juniors should integrate and stop being parochial dinosaurs, and yes at the time for the club it was a risk to move alone, and I explained why. We were not and are not Kelty.

 

Do you believe in the principal that all non league clubs should be part of the one overall league system under the jurisdiction of one governing body?

 

Also I'll ask again, why did TJ go into the meeting with no real information on the current opinion of Junior clubs? The 27 clubs 5 years ago may well be 50-60 clubs now, he simply doesn't know.

 

Your turn to provide the answers.

 

[GLESGABOY]

13 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

 

Because I believe - as do many others - that the Juniors should integrate and stop being parochial dinosaurs, and yes at the time for the club it was a risk to move alone, and I explained why. We were not and are not Kelty.

 

Do you believe in the principal that all non league clubs should be part of the one overall league system under the jurisdiction of one governing body?

 

Also I'll ask again, why did TJ go into the meeting with no real information on the current opinion of Junior clubs? The 27 clubs 5 years ago may well be 50-60 clubs now, he simply doesn't know.

 

Your turn to provide the answers.

 

How do you know what the actual meeting agenda is? How do you know he isn`t at the meeting to be informed of some development or material change in the offering that he will then be required to present to the members? How do you know he`s actually offering any sort of opinion that`s supposed to be representative of the members (although 20 from 120 using your figures is not a mandate for any sort of change)

I`m going to put something up just shortly which will deal with the issue ,in my opinion anyway. Because clubs don`t share the same view as you in relation to integrating with another far from perfect system/organisation doesn`t make them parochial dinosaurs. The short answer is NO. I don`t believe the Juniors should be part of one overall league system under the jurisdiction of one governing body. Which single entity are you referring to? The SFA or SPFL or any of the other acronyms that currently deal with funding etc from within.

So the Juniors don`t integrate as you call it do your club have a working plan to jump over the fence to the field where the grass is greener OR do you stand and look over the fence whilst staying where you are and pouring scorn on the organisation that you`re a member of OR do you stay where you are and try and work with the other member clubs and produce something that makes the grass in the other field look a lot less green.............

[Sergeant Wilson]

I came to the Juniors about 10 years ago - ish. Originally, due to bad experience in the seniors, I was an advocate of remaining entirely separate. Even suggesting at one stage Juniors should have courted lower division clubs about joining to avoid licensing and the associated cost. But time has changed, the LL is now implemented and I can see the sense in getting in and developing it from there ie a E/W/NoS divisions feeding league 2. Senior,L2, clubs would also need to be convinced that relegation to a regional set up isn't the end of the world.

However, if the attitude of Glesgaboy is prevalent I can see why there would have been reluctance to my first suggestion and why it might still continue,

[edinabear]

The simplest way to resolve this is, as has been debated on numerous occasions,  to set up at West of Scotland feeder open to 16 clubs below the Lowland league.

Ask any Juniors that are interested to apply. The ones that want to stay Junior then that's their choice. If there is more than 16 then set up 2 leagues, if there is less then open it to any amateur sides that may want to get involved. Its not that difficult.

After that is done then there is a clear pathway for any side in the region to progress if they wish and it really puts this whole debate to bed.

If the Juniors don't want to get involved in the West, which is perfectly fine, then this league could easily fill that gap as a feeder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonian_Amateur_Football_League

 

Edited January 5, 2018 by edinabear

[Craig fae the Vale]

There's no real need for everything to be under one governing body to be integrated. They pyramid works in England with multiple bodies controlling the leagues, and as you get further down the pyramid, the regionalised leagues are independently run, while still being completely integrated. The FA officially oversees everything, but as far as I'm aware, they have no real input when it comes to the United Counties League or the Anglian Combination.

 

[Burnie_man]

55 minutes ago, GLESGABOY said:

How do you know what the actual meeting agenda is? How do you know he isn`t at the meeting to be informed of some development or material change in the offering that he will then be required to present to the members? How do you know he`s actually offering any sort of opinion that`s supposed to be representative of the members (although 20 from 120 using your figures is not a mandate for any sort of change)

I`m going to put something up just shortly which will deal with the issue ,in my opinion anyway. Because clubs don`t share the same view as you in relation to integrating with another far from perfect system/organisation doesn`t make them parochial dinosaurs. The short answer is NO. I don`t believe the Juniors should be part of one overall league system under the jurisdiction of one governing body. Which single entity are you referring to? The SFA or SPFL or any of the other acronyms that currently deal with funding etc from within.

So the Juniors don`t integrate as you call it do your club have a working plan to jump over the fence to the field where the grass is greener OR do you stand and look over the fence whilst staying where you are and pouring scorn on the organisation that you`re a member of OR do you stay where you are and try and work with the other member clubs and produce something that makes the grass in the other field look a lot less green.............

Let’s get one thing out of the way once and for all, you seem fixated on my club.  To repeat, I do not have any input into the running of the club. I used to, I no longer do. Therefore I comment as a fan of the club, and as a fan of the non-league game in Scotland.  Try and remember that.

You obviously have a close working relationship with the SJFA Exec Committee, you know what the agenda was that much is obvious and people can speculate as to who you are but it’s a fairy unprofessional approach to go arguing the toss on here instead of engaging with member clubs in a meaningful manner to gauge their current opinion on the Pyramid.  To not do that for 5 years (and counting) is reprehensible.

I’ll pull no punches, you appear to be the living embodiment of a dinosaur and one which will do untold damage to Junior clubs as the gradual slide into insignificance continues.  The landscape has changed forever and whether you like it or not, the Lowland League and the Pyramid is the future, it’s not going away and it will evolve, other clubs will follow Kelty’s lead if the SJFA refuse to integrate. That’s a fact, no ifs and no buts. 

As such, working with other members clubs to make the Junior grade better as you suggest is just an exercise in flogging a dead horse, why would people put efforts into something that has no long term future? In the East you are one or two clubs away from a trickle of defections turning into a tide.  We have reached the point that there is little left to lose, the centrepiece of the grade is a sponsorless Junior Cup which costs clubs money to take part in and which brings the fixtures to a grinding halt almost every year when bad weather hits.  We still don’t have fixture lists. We still have fixture chaos in May/June. We still don’t play under floodlights. We still have a re-instatement rule. Meanwhile, everyone can look over the fence and see the LL being run on a more professional level, with clubs benefitting financially from full SFA membership and Scottish Cup participation, with a chance to progress to the SPFL. It’s not perfect, but Junior clubs participation can shape it’s future.

Bottom line is, more and more people are waking upto the fact that they support a football club, not a grade of football (just look at this thread as evidence and others over the last couple of years). If by looking over the fence they see that there is something on offer that will help progress the club on and off the pitch then that will be something that they will seek, whether by moving through the gate as part of an overall integration of the game, or by jumping the fence.

The SJFA have the chance to bring the Junior clubs into the Pyramid in an organised and agreeable manner, there are various ways to achieve this, but in light of your comments and lack of consulation, I have little faith that will happen.

[GLESGABOY]

49 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Let’s get one thing out of the way once and for all, you seem fixated on my club.  To repeat, I do not have any input into the running of the club. I used to, I no longer do. Therefore I comment as a fan of the club, and as a fan of the non-league game in Scotland.  Try and remember that.

You obviously have a close working relationship with the SJFA Exec Committee, you know what the agenda was that much is obvious and people can speculate as to who you are but it’s a fairy unprofessional approach to go arguing the toss on here instead of engaging with member clubs in a meaningful manner to gauge their current opinion on the Pyramid.  To not do that for 5 years (and counting) is reprehensible.

I’ll pull no punches, you appear to be the living embodiment of a dinosaur and one which will do untold damage to Junior clubs as the gradual slide into insignificance continues.  The landscape has changed forever and whether you like it or not, the Lowland League and the Pyramid is the future, it’s not going away and it will evolve, other clubs will follow Kelty’s lead if the SJFA refuse to integrate. That’s a fact, no ifs and no buts. 

As such, working with other members clubs to make the Junior grade better as you suggest is just an exercise in flogging a dead horse, why would people put efforts into something that has no long term future? In the East you are one or two clubs away from a trickle of defections turning into a tide.  We have reached the point that there is little left to lose, the centrepiece of the grade is a sponsorless Junior Cup which costs clubs money to take part in and which brings the fixtures to a grinding halt almost every year when bad weather hits.  We still don’t have fixture lists. We still have fixture chaos in May/June. We still don’t play under floodlights. We still have a re-instatement rule. Meanwhile, everyone can look over the fence and see the LL being run on a more professional level, with clubs benefitting financially from full SFA membership and Scottish Cup participation, with a chance to progress to the SPFL. It’s not perfect, but Junior clubs participation can shape it’s future.

Bottom line is, more and more people are waking upto the fact that they support a football club, not a grade of football (just look at this thread as evidence and others over the last couple of years). If by looking over the fence they see that there is something on offer that will help progress the club on and off the pitch then that will be something that they will seek, whether by moving through the gate as part of an overall integration of the game, or by jumping the fence.

The SJFA have the chance to bring the Junior clubs into the Pyramid in an organised and agreeable manner, there are various ways to achieve this, but in light of your comments and lack of consulation, I have little faith that will happen.

I dragged myself away from the post meeting lap-dancers for this................zzzzzzzzzzz You really are deluded if you think I`m anything to do with the SJFA but I think you doth protest toooo much about your own position within your club but we`ll leave that there shall we....

If the Junior grade is as bad  as you say it is then I look forward to your next post confirming that your club are doing "a Kelty" and trotting off to the land of milk and honey. Make sure you don`t get your stilletos caught in between the cobbles made of gold on your way over and whatever you do, please make sure you take at least 4 other members of your committee with you when you`re going to pick up your BIG BAGS OF HANDOUT MONEY......... as for the rest of it, I can see I`m actually playing chess with a pigeon......

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, GLESGABOY said:

I dragged myself away from the post meeting lap-dancers for this................zzzzzzzzzzz You really are deluded if you think I`m anything to do with the SJFA but I think you doth protest toooo much about your own position within your club but we`ll leave that there shall we....

If the Junior grade is as bad  as you say it is then I look forward to your next post confirming that your club are doing "a Kelty" and trotting off to the land of milk and honey. Make sure you don`t get your stilletos caught in between the cobbles made of gold on your way over and whatever you do, please make sure you take at least 4 other members of your committee with you when you`re going to pick up your BIG BAGS OF HANDOUT MONEY......... as for the rest of it, I can see I`m actually playing chess with a pigeon......

.........and that folks, is what you're dealing with.

[kefc]

24 minutes ago, GLESGABOY said:

I dragged myself away from the post meeting lap-dancers for this................zzzzzzzzzzz You really are deluded if you think I`m anything to do with the SJFA but I think you doth protest toooo much about your own position within your club but we`ll leave that there shall we....

If the Junior grade is as bad  as you say it is then I look forward to your next post confirming that your club are doing "a Kelty" and trotting off to the land of milk and honey. Make sure you don`t get your stilletos caught in between the cobbles made of gold on your way over and whatever you do, please make sure you take at least 4 other members of your committee with you when you`re going to pick up your BIG BAGS OF HANDOUT MONEY......... as for the rest of it, I can see I`m actually playing chess with a pigeon......

Handout Money?

Money that’s a reward for good practice and meeting requirements for your club members and customers (supporters), Money that’s re-invested into the club to improve on and off the pitch, Money that’s given as a reward for on the field success.

Whats wrong with that? See when you invest so much time and money into a club over the years it’s sometimes nice to be rewarded for that work and investment, the SJFA treat their clubs with contempt and it’s now being recognised by most.

 

[Cyclizine]

There's no real need for everything to be under one governing body to be integrated. They pyramid works in England with multiple bodies controlling the leagues, and as you get further down the pyramid, the regionalised leagues are independently run, while still being completely integrated. The FA officially oversees everything, but as far as I'm aware, they have no real input when it comes to the United Counties League or the Anglian Combination.
 

The SJFA only really "organises" the Junior Cup, competition wise. Running of the various local leagues and cups is left to the regions.

[superbigal]

5 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

The SJFA only really "organises" the Junior Cup, competition wise. Running of the various local leagues and cups is left to the regions.

Aye they continually cock up the draw (If anyone knows when/where it is) and cannot find a decent sponsor.

[GLESGABOY]

12 minutes ago, kefc said:

Handout Money?

Money that’s a reward for good practice and meeting requirements for your club members and customers (supporters), Money that’s re-invested into the club to improve on and off the pitch, Money that’s given as a reward for on the field success.

Whats wrong with that? See when you invest so much time and money into a club over the years it’s sometimes nice to be rewarded for that work and investment, the SJFA treat their clubs with contempt and it’s now being recognised by most.

 

Thanks for clearing that up for me. Kelty have taken the leap because they think they should be rewarded