Junior football, what is the future?

[Goalie Hamish]

28 minutes ago, HTG said:

Why would he have names in mind?  Do you deny that the East/West combined league was scuppered first and foremost by clubs not wanting to travel?  That wasn't just the view of small clubs - it applied to a number of the larger ones.

In future, some of them will need to set aside their misgivings on the travel issue and move forward with the rest or they'll need to nail their colours to a local football environment at whatever level that happens to be. For some clubs on a limited budget, amateur football may be the place to be. In a proper pyramid, amateur clubs would also find their level - those who play on a Saturday anyway. So nobody needs to disappear. They just play at the level that suits their ability on and off the pitch. The only thing that disappears is junior football - it's only a name. 

Didn't some Fife clubs want to reorganise the East Region next season back to Fife Leagues, Perthshire Leagues and all that.

[Goalie Hamish]

6 hours ago, garrellburn said:

May as well contribute my tuppence worth to this debate. A lot of talk about what makes a club a big player in the junior grade. Many HAVE been big names over a fairly short period of time, Armadale were a fairly successfull club during the late 1940's , early 50's , likewise Broxburn and a few others. In the west Lugar and Annbank had short periods with great teams, Central League had Petershill, Ashfield , even Clydebank enjoying a lot of success. The common factor was a location in areas with thriving industrial  and mining bases which have now gone into decline or disappeared altogether.

No junior club has enjoyed almost unbroken success over their entire history in the way that the old firm have in the Senior grade. For me, that is what makes the juniors so fascinating, a new club can emerge and very quickly become a major force. Witness Johnstone Burgh in the early 1960's, Tayport in the 90's, and I suppose Kelty today. The hard part is sustaining it beyond the time when the founding group of people are no longer around.  Clubs rise and fall, and no harm in looking back to a time when your own club ruled the roost, my own club, Kilsyth Rangers, were arguably the most successful club over a fifteen  year period from the mid 1950's till the late 60's and I was very fortunate to be around to enjoy that success. Since then we have had some good periods, aznd some not so good but we are still around and competing and ever hopeful of winning a major trophy once again.

Change is coming, no doubt about it, the setup in the lower regions of Scottish football will be unrecognisable in five years time from what it is at present. It may be forced from above, or the current administration may accept change, but it does need a major shift in thinking, many smaller clubs will have to admit they cannot continue in their present form and revert to local amateur leagues. The more ambitious clubs will look upwards, as Kelty have done, and decide to find their level within a new unified organisation. Dare I say it, along the lines of what happens down South?

Great post. The bit about clubs not continuing in their present form, isn't it a case in England that clubs can take voluntary relegation down their pyramid to find a level where they can rebuild and recover.  Not an option in Scotland of course.

[kefc]

“If these clubs are as ambitious as some on here would lead you to believe then why are they not leaving for the greener grass just now? I`ve no problem with ambition if that`s what you want to call it and clubs (office bearers, custodians etc )  can choose as they see fit but why the clamour to dismantle the junior grade (imperfect as it is and there`s already a thread running to cover it and how it could be improved) in the process. There`s  a pathway there so why don`t they take it? If they are that confident then make the step/jump like Kelty already have. “

 

You’d have to ask the people in charge of their clubs that 1. 

Timing, seeing how Kelty do, seeing if the SJFA can lead from the front and bring change, fear of being the loud kids in the class, fear of the unknown, who knows.

Dismantling  the Junior grade? The only people that will ever be held responsible for that are the guys in charge of the SJFA, I’m afraid, no one else. The no sponsor for years for the Best Cup competition in Scotland outwith The Will Scot Cup is a massive sign to where they are at, Surely that’s 1 of the remits for the guys in charge so the grade is promoted to the best of their ability?

The SJFA should have served their clubs correctly and been at the fore front for any SFA Licencing and being part of a pyramid, clubs are now wisening up and now slowly questioning why they aren’t part of it and are on the outside looking in.

Can you tell me why the SJFA didn’t lead on the pyramid and make a real push to be part of it?

The results of the feedback forms that clubs filled in a few years ago as regards to the pyramid and improvements to the Junior grade were never published as far as I’m aware, they would  be interesting to see.

I get being in charge of a grade or serving as an office bearer is mostly a thankless task and I have a level of sympathy for TJ and the guys leading the SJFA at times but the constant backward thinking that comes out is not half making things even more difficult for them. Their remit is surely to do the best for their associated clubs, if doing their best was to ignore the pyramid and  SJFA clubs being refused an SFA licence then that will be the downfall. 

Edited January 5, 2018 by kefc

[HTG]

46 minutes ago, GLESGABOY said:

Obviously he has certain clubs in mind. He didn`t pluck the statement from his arse. We know what your opinion is, interestingly it flies in the face of the majority at your own club (if I`ve understood the threads on it) who if they were asked to vote on it would more than likely refuse to join the current offering ............

My club members appear not to be keen on taking the line Kelty have taken. They've yet to express a view on something that is much wider and sees a wholesale revamp of non league football. You're managing to confuse 2 very different questions - quite deliberately of course. And to turn the comment back, we all know what your opinion is so you probably don't need to defend it at every turn - although I can see why you might feel the need given that there are very few others commenting who seem to agree with you whilst there are a whole raft of people on this topic who are happy to debate the shape of the change. 

I love it when it all boils down to "if you don't like it, f**k off". You'll find that offer being taken up with increasing regularity. The reason the game is struggling at this level is a result of inertia. The junior cup situation is a disgrace. It should never cost clubs hundreds or thousands a year to be part of the premier competition. 

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, Goalie Hamish said:

Didn't some Fife clubs want to reorganise the East Region next season back to Fife Leagues, Perthshire Leagues and all that.

Yes, they wanted to drag the game back to local football as they don't want to travel the length of their own shadow, surprised that our friend forgot about that when demanding names of clubs from cmontheloknow.  I'm sure there are clubs in the West with similar thinking.

The irony of course is that if these clubs supported a fully integrated Pyramid, they may well get their wish for more localised leagues.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Burnie_man

[HTG]

5 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

 

The irony of course is that if these clubs supported a fully integrated Pyramid, they may well get their wish for more localised leagues.

Aye, but they might not get to play the same local teams.  They might need to play different local teams. And they wouldn't be the juniors.  Some of this is based on "we are nothing without a label". 

[Burnie_man]

5 minutes ago, HTG said:

Aye, but they might not get to play the same local teams.  They might need to play different local teams. And they wouldn't be the juniors.  Some of this is based on "we are nothing without a label". 

Labels that the English done away with over 40 years ago. Senior/Junior/Amateur, pish, we're all just football clubs and we don't need umpteen National Associations to run our game.

[cmontheloknow]

23 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Labels that the English done away with over 40 years ago. Senior/Junior/Amateur, pish, we're all just football clubs and we don't need umpteen National Associations to run our game.

And that's it - what we have just now has clubs in different set-ups overlapping in terms of ability and locale. Team X could have a game vs Wishaw or Colville Park, Team Y vs Lochgelly or Leven United. It's football, 11 vs 11, winner gets the points and might even go up a level to play a higher standard of opposition. It's how it works in virtually all other parts of this universe. And it's not rocket science. It is however a wee bit complicated!

Edited January 3, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[garrellburn]

Well my post seems to have provoked some reaction and that is what is wanted, people coming out and nailing their colours to the mast.  My view is that many junior clubs have had enough of being sent to the farthest points of the country to play a Scottish tie with no hope of receiving anything like their expenses to make the trip. It is probably just as unfair to the home club who have to shell out a guarantee well in excess of what actually comes in as gate money, never mind the hospitality costs. Some will say they get the chance to progress, and that is true, but again they themselves might get a similar long trip to another minnow and again suffer a big financial hit.  We need properly funded clubs that can stand on their own two feet, and again, dare I say it, a ground with something more than the most basic facilities.  It's going to be an interesting SJFA agm this year I feel, if the hierarchy don't come up with some real proposals for progress then the shit will really hit the fan.

[Arthurlie1981]

“If these clubs are as ambitious as some on here would lead you to believe then why are they not leaving for the greener grass just now? I`ve no problem with ambition if that`s what you want to call it and clubs (office bearers, custodians etc )  can choose as they see fit but why the clamour to dismantle the junior grade (imperfect as it is and there`s already a thread running to cover it and how it could be improved) in the process. There`s  a pathway there so why don`t they take it? If they are that confident then make the step/jump like Kelty already have. “
 
You’d have to ask the people in charge of their clubs that 1. 
Timing, seeing how Kelty do, seeing if the SJFA can lead from the front and bring change, fear of being the loud kids in the class, fear of the unknown, who knows.
Dismantling  the Junior grade? The only people that will ever be held responsible for that are the guys in charge of the SJFA, I’m afraid, no one else. The no sponsor for years for the Best Cup competition in Scotland outwith The Will Scot Cup is a massive sign to where they are at, Surely that’s 1 of the remits for the guys in charge so the grade is promoted to the best of their ability?
The SJFA should have served their clubs correctly and been at the fore front for any SFA Licencing and being part of a pyramid, clubs are now wisening up and now slowly questioning why they aren’t part of it and are on the outside looking in.
Can you tell me why the SJFA didn’t lead on the pyramid and make a real push to be part of it?
The results of the feedback forms that clubs filled in a few years as regards to the pyramid and improvements to the Junior grade were never published as far as I’m aware, they would  be interesting to see.
I get being in charge of a grade or serving as an office bearer is mostly a thankless task and I have a level of sympathy for TJ and the guys leading the SJFA at times but the constant backward thinking that comes out is not half making things even more difficult for them. Their remit is surely to do the best for their associated clubs, if doing their best was to ignore the pyramid and  SJFA clubs being refused an SFA licence then that will be the downfall. 

There was a claim made at the time that no West club indicated that they were interested in joining the pyramid and I know that was incorrect as I believe there were 3 maybe 4 clubs that had said they would be interested at that time. There was no proper consultation from either the SJFA or SFA.

[Cyclizine]

I`ve read it. They consulted with their fans and asked a direct question. So does that then mean that they should be told to go and play Amateur 

In an ideal league system, I wouldn't have this distinction between "grades" - there would be a descending hierarchy of divisions becoming progressively more local as you went down the pyramid. No-one would tell the club anything, if they felt it in their interests to drop to more local leagues, so be it, if not they would compete in a larger division, geographically. As the cliché goes, it's all about finding sustainable levels.

If these clubs are as ambitious as some on here would lead you to believe then why are they not leaving for the greener grass just now? I`ve no problem with ambition if that`s what you want to call it and clubs (office bearers, custodians etc )  can choose as they see fit but why the clamour to dismantle the junior grade (imperfect as it is and there`s already a thread running to cover it and how it could be improved) in the process. There`s  a pathway there so why don`t they take it? If they are that confident then make the step/jump like Kelty already have. 

At the moment, the system we have is still rather disjointed. It really needs all interested parties to have a proper discussion about the future of non-league football in this country. Not a "we emailed a few clubs and no-one's interested" discussion, but a proper consultation. Until this happens, it's just the usual fiefdoms bickering over £100,000 toilets, wet Tuesday nights in Elgin and sectional league cups.

[Dipple burn]

12 hours ago, Shanner said:

And he'd have been right. 

Might have been true about class or stature during the 70's but we did have a history at that time.

[RabidAl]

Can anyone confirm whether this meeting between the SJFA, SFA, LL and HL is taking place today?  The article in the Mail (posted on page 73 of this thread) states that it is, but others have said it will be on January 5th.

I see there's an SJFA West Region General Meeting scheduled for Thu 25th Jan., so I take it that member clubs will be able to have their say on any proposals arising from the meeting soon enough; from there I would have expected it to be an iterative process, but it looks like the next GM after that isn't until the end of April, although I suppose that'd leave time in between for another meeting with the SFA, LL, HL in order to report back clubs' responses to proposals.

http://www.scottishjuniorfa.com/sjfa/scottish_fa_calendar.cfm?page=1746&viewCal=month&curDate={ts '2018-01-04 10:58:22'}

[archieb]

I have no more information than anyone else on here regarding today's/tomorrow's meeting but any substantive changes have to be voted in via motions at the AGM and I'm pretty sure these need to be submitted by the end of March so the West GM on 25th January is the only existing forum before then when West Region delegates can get together to discuss what they want, whether it's changes to Cup competitions, engagement with the pyramid or anything else!

[RabidAl]

Given those timescales, it'd probably be too much to expect a complete, objective overhaul of the national non-league, but several steps could be taken for it to evolve in the right direction. 

I'd be hopeful that, as a minimum, it could be agreed that:

- the heavily populated west-central area should have a feasible local route into the national pyramid; 

- the Highland League should provide a route in for licenced north junior winners/licenced NCL winners, as there is no 'local' route into the pyramid in the north at present; and, 

- the Tay should be replaced by the Angus-Aberdeenshire border as the highland/lowland divide, for geographical reasons (too extensive travel involved in a HL with both Tay and Moray/North teams).

 

(I wonder if this summer would be too early for the Lowland League to split into west and east regions, which could also help with establishing a WoSFL. 

As I understand it, there has to be a tier of licenced clubs below the SPFL to provide a decent standard for any relegated SPFL club to drop into.  There would seem to be enough in the east, with 10 members of the current LL being from that region, plus others from the EoSFL and East Superleague who could apply if there was to be a 16-team East Lowlands League; the east juniors could then plug in below this.

In the west, there'd be BSC Glasgow, East Kilbride, Cumbernauld, Gretna, Dalbeattie and Edusport from the LL; Glasgow Uni., Girvan and possibly Threave (having already played over a wider area when in the LL) are licenced and might be interested; I don't know if any others from the SoSFL would be interested, but I wonder if any current west juniors would be able to gain licences by this summer and so apply to join a 16-team West LL for season 2018-19 (they would have to be licenced in the event that Clyde were relegated from the SPFL to a West LL); the west junior leagues and SoSFL could then plug in below this (together being called the West of Scotland Football League), only being promoted if they won the top division and were licenced.

Pure speculation, but it would seem to be a fairly straight-forward step towards a more balanced and more national pyramid.)    

https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/media/2913/201217cl-current-status.pdf

Edited January 4, 2018 by RabidAl
To add most recent SFA licencing pdf.

[pipedreamer]

Splitting the lowland league to east/west would take away some of the appeal for certain clubs I would think. It would be more logical to have EoS and Wos below it and ask the SoSL if they are open to being further down the pyramid as most clubs don’t have any interest in going further, perhaps it could slot in below the lowest west junior league with optional promotion/relegation due to its geographical location. 

 

I dont understand the the reluctance to a semi-national division from the likes of Auchinleck, Kilbirnie etc as these clubs love being drawn away in the junior cup and travelling to fife/tayside/lothians. It would be no different to playing Linlithgow, Bo’ness, Bonnyrigg etc once a season away from home. At worst you travel outside the west region 8 times per season, currently talbot could be playing up to 8 times outside the region anyway in the junior cup! 

 

[dwl123]

1 hour ago, RabidAl said:

Given those timescales, it'd probably be too much to expect a complete, objective overhaul of the national non-league, but several steps could be taken for it to evolve in the right direction. 

I'd be hopeful that, as a minimum, it could be agreed that:

- the heavily populated west-central area should have a feasible local route into the national pyramid; 

- the Highland League should provide a route in for licenced north junior winners/licenced NCL winners, as there is no 'local' route into the pyramid in the north at present; and, 

- the Tay should be replaced by the Angus-Aberdeenshire border as the highland/lowland divide, for geographical reasons (too extensive travel involved in a HL with both Tay and Moray/North teams).

 

(I wonder if this summer would be too early for the Lowland League to split into west and east regions, which could also help with establishing a WoSFL. 

As I understand it, there has to be a tier of licenced clubs below the SPFL to provide a decent standard for any relegated SPFL club to drop into.  There would seem to be enough in the east, with 10 members of the current LL being from that region, plus others from the EoSFL and East Superleague who could apply if there was to be a 16-team East Lowlands League; the east juniors could then plug in below this.

In the west, there'd be BSC Glasgow, East Kilbride, Cumbernauld, Gretna, Dalbeattie and Edusport from the LL; Glasgow Uni., Girvan and possibly Threave (having already played over a wider area when in the LL) are licenced and might be interested; I don't know if any others from the SoSFL would be interested, but I wonder if any current west juniors would be able to gain licences by this summer and so apply to join a 16-team West LL for season 2018-19 (they would have to be licenced in the event that Clyde were relegated from the SPFL to a West LL); the west junior leagues and SoSFL could then plug in below this (together being called the West of Scotland Football League), only being promoted if they won the top division and were licenced.

Pure speculation, but it would seem to be a fairly straight-forward step towards a more balanced and more national pyramid.)    

https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/media/2913/201217cl-current-status.pdf

I do think that due to the population/football club density in the central belt an East/West lowland league split on an equal par with the Highland League makes complete sense for those clubs wishing to progress. As has been posted previously adding the league 2 bottom club results in a nice 4 way play off for the SPFL place.

 

[kefc]

Just to confirm the meeting is tomorrow.

[Kilbowie Benches]

Do you know who is at the meeting? Is it Just SFA and SJFA?

[Patches O'Houlihan]

6 minutes ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

Do you know who is at the meeting? Is it Just SFA and SJFA?

I believe the LL, EoSL, SoS leagues will all be in attendance as well as the the 2 mentioned above.

Edited January 4, 2018 by Patches O'Houlihan