Junior football, what is the future?

[Jeek]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

That would mean the Junior Superleagues at the same level as the LL, I very much doubt that will ever happen eg why should the East Superleague be considered above the EoSFL where Kelty are, the Juniors can't just expect to leapfrog a whole league that is already in the Pyramid.

Simple solution, plug the East Superleague below the EoSFL, invite applications for the remaining three places to make it up to 16 (priority given to league position eg Linlithgow, Bo'ness, Bonnyrigg), and then have two up/two down from Superleague to EoSFL (or three up/down).  Within two or three seasons the EoSFL will be 90% Junior clubs, and some of them will be have progressed through into the LL, the poorer EoSFL clubs will have headed downwards through the junior leagues to a more appropriate level.  Within 4-5 seasons, everyone will wonder what all the fuss was about. 

Do the same in the West with a new WoSFL (which would be almost all Junior clubs anyway).  The "North of Tay" clubs in the East can stay where they are for now until the situation with the HFL/North Juniors is sorted and in place.

The Junior Blazerati can join with the EoSFL and SoSFL Blazerati to form a new board to oversee WoSFL / EoSFL / SoSFL. In time, merge the SoSFL into the West set-up.

Just a little extra to add to that. I play in the English pyramid, fairly low down admittedly, lvl 12. It's not uncommon for teams below this level to be promoted / relegated more than one league. For example a team starting at the bottom of the Bristol and district leage (B&D 5) may win every game by an 8 goal margin as they're a new team re formed from a now defunct one.... see 'rangers'. They might be promoted 3 leagues. Likewise teams can ask to be relegated more than one league. In practical terms, if tweedmouth got relegated into the east superleage, they'd be spanked every single week. They may well wish to be at the bottom league and be more competitive. In the SOSL, I dare say many of them wouldn't want to be in the top league in the west..... someone could just ask them?

the point being this is really simple stuff. It's becoming apparent that self interest by blazers is making this a lot harder than it need be. Self interest in Scottish football - shock.

[daleboy1969]

2 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

That would mean the Junior Superleagues at the same level as the LL, I very much doubt that will ever happen eg why should the East Superleague be considered above the EoSFL where Kelty are, the Juniors can't just expect to leapfrog a whole league that is already in the Pyramid.

Simple solution, plug the East Superleague below the EoSFL, invite applications for the remaining three places to make it up to 16 (priority given to league position eg Linlithgow, Bo'ness, Bonnyrigg), and then have two up/two down from Superleague to EoSFL (or three up/down).  Within two or three seasons the EoSFL will be 90% Junior clubs, and some of them will be have progressed through into the LL, the poorer EoSFL clubs will have headed downwards through the junior leagues to a more appropriate level.  Within 4-5 seasons, everyone will wonder what all the fuss was about. 

Do the same in the West with a new WoSFL (which would be almost all Junior clubs anyway).  The "North of Tay" clubs in the East can stay where they are for now until the situation with the HFL/North Juniors is sorted and in place.

The Junior Blazerati can join with the EoSFL and SoSFL Blazerati to form a new board to oversee WoSFL / EoSFL / SoSFL. In time, merge the SoSFL into the West set-up.

The same eos league craigroyston and easthouse Lily left .not a good league .doubt the sosfl is decent so yes on par with lowland league .but as I have said ground improvements required again both East and South of Scotland league facilities very poor . While the sjfa must start asking clubs what they want .clubs must start asking FANS what THEY want .blazers are blazers at all levels .be it a club blazer telling FANS what THEY want or league/association blazers telling clubs what's best for them .

[daleboy1969]

10 minutes ago, gogsy said:

So if Armadale had /have asked their supporters what they wanted, was the answer a mid table south division team with very little ground improvements in recent years?

How many ground improvements took place at kelty  before the sugar daddy came ? None 

Thinking your above others probably led you to play in the league your in .

The supporters off armadale have dwindled .we asked them why .response .' Too many games miles away and too much travelling ' 

Facilities at armadale have stagnated but we are in the process off putting that right with a ten year plan. So we asked supporters and we act . Remember we were once thought off as a big junior club so don't count your chickens. 

[daleboy1969]

16 minutes ago, gogsy said:

If you think that you should have seen the park when Kelty entered the juniors in 1980. or even 1990  when the old dressing rooms were still there.  Armadale have won the square root of sod all in the last sixty years. Nobody under pension age would remember a time Armadale were a big junior club.

As I said don't count your chickens .

Clearly a huge club now kelty .imo a minnow compared to linlithgow/ boness/ auchinleck pollock etc.but that's none of my business .a severe lack off respect for others thankfully your well out off the junior game . Hope you realise your potential in never never land . 

[daleboy1969]

9 minutes ago, gogsy said:

Kelty are neither a huge club  nor a minnow compared to any of the teams you mention,

I'm entitled to an OPINION  .as you are yours .

And in my opinion your club has neither the history, class or stature of any the clubs mentioned .clubs that have constantly evolved and improved through the decades in the junior game .

I'm well aware of my clubs failings during the same period but I don't look on with envy .use rather try and get things right .

Anyway this is a junior forum and your club are no longer a junior club so why don't you start telling the East of Scotland and lowland league teams what they should be doing .CHEERIO 

[HoBNob]

I'm entitled to an OPINION  .as you are yours .
And in my opinion your club has neither the history, class or stature of any the clubs mentioned .clubs that have constantly evolved and improved through the decades in the junior game .
I'm well aware of my clubs failings during the same period but I don't look on with envy .use rather try and get things right .
Anyway this is a junior forum and your club are no longer a junior club so why don't you start telling the East of Scotland and lowland league teams what they should be doing .CHEERIO 

Kelty Hearts now have a stature that surpasses that of the clubs you've mentioned, funny what a forward progressive thinking club can achieve isn't it?

[garrellburn]

May as well contribute my tuppence worth to this debate. A lot of talk about what makes a club a big player in the junior grade. Many HAVE been big names over a fairly short period of time, Armadale were a fairly successfull club during the late 1940's , early 50's , likewise Broxburn and a few others. In the west Lugar and Annbank had short periods with great teams, Central League had Petershill, Ashfield , even Clydebank enjoying a lot of success. The common factor was a location in areas with thriving industrial  and mining bases which have now gone into decline or disappeared altogether.

No junior club has enjoyed almost unbroken success over their entire history in the way that the old firm have in the Senior grade. For me, that is what makes the juniors so fascinating, a new club can emerge and very quickly become a major force. Witness Johnstone Burgh in the early 1960's, Tayport in the 90's, and I suppose Kelty today. The hard part is sustaining it beyond the time when the founding group of people are no longer around.  Clubs rise and fall, and no harm in looking back to a time when your own club ruled the roost, my own club, Kilsyth Rangers, were arguably the most successful club over a fifteen  year period from the mid 1950's till the late 60's and I was very fortunate to be around to enjoy that success. Since then we have had some good periods, aznd some not so good but we are still around and competing and ever hopeful of winning a major trophy once again.

Change is coming, no doubt about it, the setup in the lower regions of Scottish football will be unrecognisable in five years time from what it is at present. It may be forced from above, or the current administration may accept change, but it does need a major shift in thinking, many smaller clubs will have to admit they cannot continue in their present form and revert to local amateur leagues. The more ambitious clubs will look upwards, as Kelty have done, and decide to find their level within a new unified organisation. Dare I say it, along the lines of what happens down South?

Edited January 3, 2018 by garrellburn

[Kilbowie Benches]

18 minutes ago, garrellburn said:

May as well contribute my tuppence worth to this debate. A lot of talk about what makes a club a big player in the junior grade. Many HAVE been big names over a fairly short period of time, Armadale were a fairly successfull club during the late 1940's , early 50's , likewise Broxburn and a few others. In the west Lugar and Annbank had short periods with great teams, Central League had Petershill, Ashfield , even Clydebank enjoying a lot of success. The common factor was a location in areas with thriving industrial  and mining bases which have now gone into decline or disappeared altogether.

No junior club has enjoyed almost unbroken success over their entire history in the way that the old firm have in the Senior grade. For me, that is what makes the juniors so fascinating, a new club can emerge and very quickly become a major force. Witness Johnstone Burgh in the early 1960's, Tayport in the 90's, and I suppose Kelty today. The hard part is sustaining it beyond the time when the founding group of people are no longer around.  Clubs rise and fall, and no harm in looking back to a time when your own club ruled the roost, my own club, Kilsyth Rangers, were arguably the most successful club over a fifteen  year period from the mid 1950's till the late 60's and I was very fortunate to be around to enjoy that success. Since then we have had some good periods, aznd some not so good but we are still around and competing and ever hopeful of winning a major trophy once again.

Change is coming, no doubt about it, the setup in the lower regions of Scottish football will be unrecognisable in five years time from what it is at present. It may be forced from above, or the current administration may accept change, but it does need a major shift in thinking, many smaller clubs will have to admit they cannot continue in their present form and revert to local amateur leagues. The more ambitious clubs will look upwards, as Kelty have done, and decide to find their level within a new unified organisation. Dare I say it, along the lines of what happens down South?

Best post to date.

[Shanner]

18 hours ago, gogsy said:

I can imagine if you were around in the mid 70s you would be saying something along the lines to Auchinleck Talbot supporters that they had "neither the history, class or stature of the likes of Cambuslang Rangers."

And he'd have been right. 

[GLESGABOY]

3 hours ago, garrellburn said:

May as well contribute my tuppence worth to this debate. A lot of talk about what makes a club a big player in the junior grade. Many HAVE been big names over a fairly short period of time, Armadale were a fairly successfull club during the late 1940's , early 50's , likewise Broxburn and a few others. In the west Lugar and Annbank had short periods with great teams, Central League had Petershill, Ashfield , even Clydebank enjoying a lot of success. The common factor was a location in areas with thriving industrial  and mining bases which have now gone into decline or disappeared altogether.

No junior club has enjoyed almost unbroken success over their entire history in the way that the old firm have in the Senior grade. For me, that is what makes the juniors so fascinating, a new club can emerge and very quickly become a major force. Witness Johnstone Burgh in the early 1960's, Tayport in the 90's, and I suppose Kelty today. The hard part is sustaining it beyond the time when the founding group of people are no longer around.  Clubs rise and fall, and no harm in looking back to a time when your own club ruled the roost, my own club, Kilsyth Rangers, were arguably the most successful club over a fifteen  year period from the mid 1950's till the late 60's and I was very fortunate to be around to enjoy that success. Since then we have had some good periods, aznd some not so good but we are still around and competing and ever hopeful of winning a major trophy once again.

Change is coming, no doubt about it, the setup in the lower regions of Scottish football will be unrecognisable in five years time from what it is at present. It may be forced from above, or the current administration may accept change, but it does need a major shift in thinking, many smaller clubs will have to admit they cannot continue in their present form and revert to local amateur leagues. The more ambitious clubs will look upwards, as Kelty have done, and decide to find their level within a new unified organisation. Dare I say it, along the lines of what happens down South?

And who gets to decide that clubs that have been existence for generations suddenly aren`t good enough to be included in this footballing utopia that you`re alluding to? 

[geo87]

And who gets to decide that clubs that have been existence for generations suddenly aren`t good enough to be included in this footballing utopia that you`re alluding to? 

The league table surely?

[cmontheloknow]

1 hour ago, GLESGABOY said:

And who gets to decide that clubs that have been existence for generations suddenly aren`t good enough to be included in this footballing utopia that you`re alluding to? 

Perhaps the clubs themselves when they bleat about travelling beyond the cosy confines of their own locality?

[GLESGABOY]

7 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Perhaps the clubs themselves when they bleat about travelling beyond the cosy confines of their own locality?

Feel free to name the clubs that you feel aren`t of the stature required then or that in your opinion "bleat about travelling beyond the cosy confines of their own locality" don`t be shy about it as you`ve clearly got some names in mind.........

[clash city rocker]

18 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Perhaps the clubs themselves when they bleat about travelling beyond the cosy confines of their own locality?

Fair chance that may happen. However if you remember the East/West merger proposed by the SJFA left the North Region kinda superfluous to the future of the juniors. Never expect the expected from the blazers nobody will be allowed to hinder their continued existence.

[HTG]

8 minutes ago, GLESGABOY said:

Feel free to name the clubs that you feel aren`t of the stature required then or that in your opinion "bleat about travelling beyond the cosy confines of their own locality" don`t be shy about it as you`ve clearly got some names in mind.........

Why would he have names in mind?  Do you deny that the East/West combined league was scuppered first and foremost by clubs not wanting to travel?  That wasn't just the view of small clubs - it applied to a number of the larger ones.

In future, some of them will need to set aside their misgivings on the travel issue and move forward with the rest or they'll need to nail their colours to a local football environment at whatever level that happens to be. For some clubs on a limited budget, amateur football may be the place to be. In a proper pyramid, amateur clubs would also find their level - those who play on a Saturday anyway. So nobody needs to disappear. They just play at the level that suits their ability on and off the pitch. The only thing that disappears is junior football - it's only a name. 

[Cyclizine]

22 minutes ago, GLESGABOY said:

Feel free to name the clubs that you feel aren`t of the stature required then or that in your opinion "bleat about travelling beyond the cosy confines of their own locality" don`t be shy about it as you`ve clearly got some names in mind.........

I refer you to this thread where a certain poster from Armadale feels threatened by a couple of trips to Fife every season.

[kefc]

2 hours ago, GLESGABOY said:

And who gets to decide that clubs that have been existence for generations suddenly aren`t good enough to be included in this footballing utopia that you`re alluding to? 

Surely the office bearers and committee running their club would know 1st hand where they can compete on and off the pitch. The ambitious who can back it up should flourish while clubs who are maybe struggling will find a level more suited.

Or

It could be decided on merit through performance on the pitch.

Edited January 3, 2018 by kefc

[GLESGABOY]

4 minutes ago, HTG said:

Why would he have names in mind?  Do you deny that the East/West combined league was scuppered first and foremost by clubs not wanting to travel?  That wasn't just the view of small clubs - it applied to a number of the larger ones.

In future, some of them will need to set aside their misgivings on the travel issue and move forward with the rest or they'll need to nail their colours to a local football environment at whatever level that happens to be. For some clubs on a limited budget, amateur football may be the place to be. In a proper pyramid, amateur clubs would also find their level - those who play on a Saturday anyway. So nobody needs to disappear. They just play at the level that suits their ability on and off the pitch. The only thing that disappears is junior football - it's only a name. 

Obviously he has certain clubs in mind. He didn`t pluck the statement from his arse. We know what your opinion is, interestingly it flies in the face of the majority at your own club (if I`ve understood the threads on it) who if they were asked to vote on it would more than likely refuse to join the current offering ............

[GLESGABOY]

6 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

I refer you to this thread where a certain poster from Armadale feels threatened by a couple of trips to Fife every season.

I`ve read it. They consulted with their fans and asked a direct question. So does that then mean that they should be told to go and play Amateur 

[GLESGABOY]

6 minutes ago, kefc said:

Surely the office bearers and committee running their club would know 1st hand where they can compete on and off the pitch. The ambitious who can back it up should flourish while clubs who are maybe struggling will find a level more suited.

Or

It could be decided on merit through performance on the pitch.

If these clubs are as ambitious as some on here would lead you to believe then why are they not leaving for the greener grass just now? I`ve no problem with ambition if that`s what you want to call it and clubs (office bearers, custodians etc )  can choose as they see fit but why the clamour to dismantle the junior grade (imperfect as it is and there`s already a thread running to cover it and how it could be improved) in the process. There`s  a pathway there so why don`t they take it? If they are that confident then make the step/jump like Kelty already have.