Junior football, what is the future?

[Che Dail]

2 minutes ago, gogsy said:

Glenafton will have made more money from the game against Livingston than they did winning Scottish Junior cup. Throw in the money earned from the earlier rounds and you can see why its worth doing it every year.

Correct... regardless of how many people turned up to watch. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Che Dail

[garrellburn]

1 minute ago, Che Dail said:

Correct... regardless of how many people turned up to watch. 

What is the money from SFA for appearing in 3rd round?

[Che Dail]

24 minutes ago, garrellburn said:

What is the money from SFA for appearing in 3rd round?

2017/18 Scottish Cup Prize Money:

Prelim 1 = £2k

Prelim 2 = £2k

R1 = £2k

R2 = £4k

R3 = £6k

Gate receipts share v Livi = £2500?

plus other income at the other games, Min £20k?

 

With Licence, add £10k

TOTAL = £30k

Every season potentially.   

Edited November 20, 2017 by Che Dail

[Che Dail]

20 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

2017/18 Scottish Cup Prize Money:

Prelim 1 = £2k

Prelim 2 = £2k

R1 = £2k

R2 = £4k

R3 = £6k

Gate receipts share v Livi = £2500?

plus other income at the other games, Min £20k?

 

With Licence, add £10k

TOTAL = £30k

Every season potentially.   

...land a tie with Hibs or Hearts and depending on circumstances you could multiply that end figure by 5 or 6...  

 

 

[GLENAFTON93]

46 minutes ago, gogsy said:

Glenafton will have made more money from the game against Livingston than they did winning Scottish Junior cup. Throw in the money earned from the earlier rounds and you can see why its worth doing it every year.

Thats probably correct,  but like your own team we could  quite easily of went out in the preliminaries or 1st/2nd round.

[Che Dail]

7 minutes ago, GLENAFTON93 said:

Thats probably correct,  but like your own team we could  quite easily of went out in the preliminaries or 1st/2nd round.

Aye but they'll have another shot next season, and the year after that...

[GLENAFTON93]

6 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Aye but they'll have another shot next season, and the year after that...

So could Glenafton.

[kefc]

12 minutes ago, GLENAFTON93 said:

Thats probably correct,  but like your own team we could  quite easily of went out in the preliminaries or 1st/2nd round.

Your right, another reason for us to get our licence so yearly participation is guaranteed. 

Che-Dail - Prize money has changed slightly with more prize money on offer in all rounds.

Im hearing a big club with a big fan base from the West is making strides to join the EOS League from next season.

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, Che Dail said:

This is a cut & paste from the Bo'ness website:

At Bo’ness United we want to progress and it would be remiss of us not to look at ways to develop the football club and as such we are working towards being ready with our license application. In order to receive your license it is now a stipulation that you must commit to the pyramid.

We have looked at the potential benefits of joining the pyramid and believe that in order to compete in the future this is something we must look to do.  The financial benefits of becoming licensed far outweigh the revenues that can be made if we stay within Junior Football as it is at the present time.

The club firmly believe that there should be no ceiling and that all teams should find the level that suits them in congruence with their own abilities, whether that be League Two, the Lowland League or wherever.  Irrespective we believe a full pyramid should be in place.

Bo’ness United want to be part of the pyramid, Scottish football is evolving and we truly believe that there will be significant changes.  We want to be at the forefront of change whether that be playing in the East of Scotland League, The Lowland league or with the Juniors if they become part of a revised pyramid that encompasses all clubs.

Read it how you want to read it, but it seems fairly evident they want to join the pyramid.

Bo'ness will join the EoSFL, it's just a question of timing. next season maybe, maybe the season after, but they will.

[Burnie_man]

10 minutes ago, kefc said:

Im hearing a big club with a big fan base from the West is making strides to join the EOS League from next season.

Interesting if true.  Maybe why the SJFA all of a sudden have a "working group" to look at the Pyramid (again)

[kefc]

Scottish Cup 17/18 

Prelim 1 = £3k

Prelim 2 = £3k

R1 = £4K

R2 = £5k

R3 = £6k

R4 - £20k

R5 - £40k

QF - £80k

[Che Dail]

22 minutes ago, GLENAFTON93 said:

So could Glenafton.

Not if the SFA decide to shut the door though...

[Sunrise]

Im hearing a big club with a big fan base from the West is making strides to join the EOS League from next season.

Would that be the Bankies? Can’t say I blame them.

Their forum is quite set on it.

[Burnie_man]

2 hours ago, Bishoptonbankie said:

In a sounding exercise 80% of our support backed the move, believe that we are now exploring options, ultimately though it would have to be passed at an egm of our owners. Im very excited about this, however very thankful for the last 13 years in junior football. Would be great if a West Seniors league started but we need change before that. (obviously just my personal opinion).

Good to hear.  Highlights how poorly the Pyramid is currently constructed if you have to move to the EoSFL instead of a WoSFL.  Either way, the Pyramid is where Clydebank should be headed IMO given the stadium issue is being resolved.

[Auld Heid]

11 hours ago, Bishoptonbankie said:

In a sounding exercise 80% of our support backed the move, believe that we are now exploring options, ultimately though it would have to be passed at an egm of our owners. Im very excited about this, however very thankful for the last 13 years in junior football. Would be great if a West Seniors league started but we need change before that. (obviously just my personal opinion).

Owners?   

How does that structure work.  Most clubs the members own the club and appoint a committee on their behalf to run/manage on a day to day basis.

[edinabear]

14 hours ago, kefc said:

Your right, another reason for us to get our licence so yearly participation is guaranteed. 

Che-Dail - Prize money has changed slightly with more prize money on offer in all rounds.

Im hearing a big club with a big fan base from the West is making strides to join the EOS League from next season.

Well that is interesting. Would it not make more sense for them to join South of Scotland in that, on paper, there is a greater chance to get promoted and the travel is not too much longer? No disrespect to SofS intended of course!

A West of Scotland feeder league really needs to be set up and eventually probably incorporate the SofS league into it somehow.

The SFA could really just call the Juniors hierarchy bluff and say they are setting up a new 16 team league  for the West that feeds into the LL and just open it up to applicants and see who applies. I can see more Junior clubs applying for it than people think.

 

 

 

[Jason King]

1 hour ago, edinabear said:

Well that is interesting. Would it not make more sense for them to join South of Scotland in that, on paper, there is a greater chance to get promoted and the travel is not too much longer? No disrespect to SofS intended of course!

A West of Scotland feeder league really needs to be set up and eventually probably incorporate the SofS league into it somehow.

The SFA could really just call the Juniors hierarchy bluff and say they are setting up a new 16 team league  for the West that feeds into the LL and just open it up to applicants and see who applies. I can see more Junior clubs applying for it than people think.

 

I think moving to the 4 divisions in the West places the region in a great position to become part of the pyramid.

[HTG]

2 hours ago, Jason King said:

I think moving to the 4 divisions in the West places the region in a great position to become part of the pyramid.

Add in the existing SoS league, 4 divisions of juniors in the east plus the existing EoS  league and you have 10 divisions beneath the Lowland League. Meanwhile, oop north ...

The pyramid cannot be properly structured based on a split at or around Dundee. It has to be a single Tier 5 division  or at least 3 x Tier 5 leagues. Even then the depth of standard in each area needs to be recognised and managed given some of the utter dross lurking around the Highland League and the rather limited standard of junior teams once you get past Hermes, Banks o Dee and a couple of others. 

Anyway, back to Junior football - anyone for a super league south covering Dundee down? 

[Unknown Fan]

I have been reading this forum for a while and the Scottish football league system is bizarre at best.   Here are my thoughts and ideas on how to make it better and integrate the juniors in the system without in taking the next 20 years for clubs to trickle through the SPFL third of a chance of getting promoted League Two trapdoor.

At the moment we have;

Level	League(s)/Division(s)
1	Scottish Premiership (Ladbrokes Premiership) 12 clubs playing 38 games
2	Scottish Championship (Ladbrokes Championship) 10 clubs playing 36 games
3	Scottish League One (Ladbrokes League One) 10 clubs playing 36 games
4	Scottish League Two (Ladbrokes League Two) 10 clubs playing 36 games
5	Highland Football League (Press & Journal Highland League) 18 clubs playing 34 games			Lowland Football League (Ferrari Packaging Lowland League) 16 clubs playing 30 games
6	North Caledonian Football League (Not incorporated) 9 clubs playing 16 games			East of Scotland Football League (Central Taxis EOS League) 13 clubs playing 24 games	South of Scotland Football League 15 clubs playing 28 games

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_football_league_system

With any of the 3 Junior football regions top divisions making up an unofficial Level 7 and leading down to Level 10 ( the new West league 2 from next season).  Also to add to that at an unofficial level 7 is any of the many amateur league top divisions.  This has been shown in recent years with Cumbernauld Colts (Caly Ama League) jumping into the lowland league,  Kelty Hearts (East region juniors) entering the East of Scotland and Bonnyton Thistle entering the South of Scotland. 

So that is for now;

42 SPFL clubs

34 Level 5 clubs (All SFA Licence holders)

37 Level 6 clubs (SFA licence not required to enter league though then no Scottish Cup entry without)

So at present the Scottish Pyramid there is a total of 113 Senior clubs including North Caly League (Only Golspie have SFA Licence)

Over the 3 Junior regions there are 158 clubs West 64, East 60 and North 34 over 11 divisions from next year.

Junior clubs can no longer obtain a SFA licence if they remain within the Junior league structure.  Linlithgow & Banks o'Dee being the clever ones, Girvan too.

My proposed revamp;

League(s)/Division(s)
1	Scottish Premiership 14 clubs playing 38/33/36  games Playing each other twice (26) then split into 7/7 (38) or 8/6 (33/36) 8/6 split would find interesting as top 3/4 gain European places (depending on winner of Scottish Cup) 8th spared relegation dog fight and games against the bigger teams a prize in itself.  Though less games as doubt top 8 teams be wanting to be playing 40 game season. With that open to ideas. Playoff system for european places?  Though with new plans for Europa League possible top clubs would like to play less domestic league games?  Spare games to play in mini league with top Scandinavian teams as unlikely any teams to be playing European football March - May.   With extra European places up for grabs for group winners, UEFA may like the idea of rewarding forward thinking associations? bottom 2 automatic relegation 3rd bottom play off with 3rd-5th in Championship
2	Scottish Championship 14 clubs playing 38 games Playing each other twice then split 7/7 Top 2 promoted 3rd to 5th in playoff with 12th in premiership.  12th plays 5th, 3rd plays 4th, 2 legs, one game final.
3	Northern Scottish National                                                                                                                                       Southern Scottish National  16 Clubs playing each other once 15 games in each the Northern and Southern league first half of season (32 Clubs) The 32 clubs that would compete in these 2 regional leagues of 16 for the first half of the season would be made up of 4 bottom teams Current League One, 10 from League Two, top 10 from Highland league and top 8 from the current Lowland league.  The Tay boundary line would be flexible, hence the Angus, Dundee or Perthshire clubs if in level 3 would possibly play Northern one year Southern the next depending of the demographic of the 32 clubs Scottish National League Top 8 in each league then go on to play at a national level 16 club league in the 2nd half of the season playing each other once.   16 clubs playing a 30 game season   (15 games in regional first half 15 in national 2nd half) Points gained against bottom 8 cleared, points gained against top 8 carried over. top 2 promoted 3rd to 5th play off for possible promotion with 12th in Championship
4	Northern Scottish National                                                                                                               Southern Scottish National 16 clubs playing 15 games from first half of season in level 3 above in their regional leagues. The bottom 8 teams in each league would remain regional and play in leagues of 8 to see which teams would get relegated to level 5. The points gained against top 8 clubs from first half of season would be carried over.  The Northern and Southern 2 separate leagues of 8 would then play each other twice 14 games 29 game total 2 clubs relegated possible playoffs too with 3rd bottom and teams finishing 2nd & 3rd in level 5 leagues    All clubs at this level and above have SFA Licenses only able to gain access by being top 3 of level 5 regional league and SFA licence in place .
5	Highland league Northern and Southern 2 regional leagues of 14 clubs in each league 26 games total The Highland Northern would be top teams from North Caledonian League plus any other clubs from the bottom of the current Highland league and northern juniors that are within Highland Council boundary possible parts of Moray too.  The Southern league clubs in bottom half of current Highland league, Northern Juniors and East junior region north of Tay boundary line			Lowland Football League East and West 2 regional leagues of 14 clubs in each league 26 games total the make up of the 28 clubs at this level would be 8 clubs from bottom half of Lowland league The best of East and West juniors looking to progress in the pyramid Best of Southern and East of Scotland league
6	North Caledonian League North Juniors Top division East Junior Region Top Division Clubs North of the Tay boundary line			East of Scotland Football League Possible that being split into Lothian and Borders (Southern)  and Fife and Perthshire (Northern)  East Region Junior top division	West Region 2nd Division (Possible)  West Region Junior Top division South of Scotland Football League

So with this new system we have;

44 Clubs Levels 1-3 playing at a national level an increase of 2.

Though Level 3-4 (32 clubs 2 leagues of 16 play regional for the first half of the season)

Level 4 SFA licensing is required (16 clubs 2 leagues of 8 2nd half of season)

So 60 clubs are in leagues Levels 1-4 with compulsory SFA licensing.

The top 28 retain their 4 games against each other leagues though in bigger 14 club divisions.  With the hope that in time could led to bigger leagues with fewer head to heads in the future.

Level 3-4  (32 Clubs) play each other max of 3 times each.  Stronger clubs each season can go to play at national level and possible promotion to Championship each season.  This league set up at level 3-4 would make sure the strongest teams would be entering the Championship each season regardless of region.

Clubs at Level 5 (56 clubs) have quicker possible access to higher levels and so bigger incentive for Junior clubs / association to join the pyramid.  

So there would be 116 clubs at Levels 1-5 in structured leagues.

1. 14

2. 14

3. 16

4. 16(8,8)     60 clubs total levels 1-4

5. 14-14-14-14   56 clubs

This would be an increase of 3 clubs compared to the 113 clubs in levels 1-6 at the moment.

For this structure to work a dozen or more Junior clubs would need to join the 14 club level 5 leagues to take the place of the weaker South of Scotland and East of Scotland league teams that are happy playing in their regional leagues.  The Northern Highland Level 5 league on paper would be considerably weaker than the other 3 level 5 leagues though covering a large area and localising travel for the weaker outlying highland league teams.  Wick, Fort William possibly among their stronger teams.  Little need for any access below this level in this region apart for aspirational amateur teams from the region or Summer league select teams (possible Skye & Lochalsh) 

So more regional leagues, less Annan vs Elgin Christmas cracker derbies and more likely for Junior league clubs to take part. 

Less travel for smaller clubs and more local derbies.    

My logic is that any club with an average of less than 1,000 attendance shouldn't be playing at a national level.

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm

Also many of the Clubs in North Caly, South of Scotland and East of Scotland league are nowhere near as developed or supported as top Junior clubs especially in the East and West Juniors.

http://nonleaguescotland.org.uk/

Besides all of that for Scottish teams overall to be any force in Europe again a March to November Summer league should be introduced.  I have no doubt Aberdeen would have been playing group stage Europa league last few years and Rangers would have been spared their blushes this year if summer football was in place.  Though for the SFA to be that forward thinking, daring and pro-active seems unthinkable.

Your thoughts, good idea?

Edited November 22, 2017 by Unknown Fan

[archieb]

Unrealistic pie-in-the-sky fantasy stuff.

Incredible that so much time and effort is wasted by folk coming up with over-radical schemes like this.