Guest Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 On 03/11/2017 at 15:39, HibeeJibee said: Kelty won the East Juniors 2 out of the last 3 seasons. Runners-up in between. Most people would consider that "heavyweight". Is IG suggesting Edusport, despite meeting applicable criteria, should have been refused admission to SOSL or promotion to LL because a high proportion of their players are foreign? These "upgraded boys clubs" didn't do too badly recording scores like Edinburgh City 2-1 Auchinleck, BSC Glasgow 2-2 Auchinleck and Cumbernauld 2-0 Auchinleck in recent Scottish Cups. There are patently more than a "few" well-run community clubs in senior non-league football. Proving about as accurate as IG's prediction Edinburgh City's crowds would bomb in SPFL2 and struggle to reach 3 figures. For the record they averaged 401 last season, currently on 321. I never at any stage meant to disrespect Kelty, who are clearly a well run club. My point was that even though recently they have had some success, their league wins being fairly impressive they were not considered a Junior heavyweight, decent no doubt, ambitious clearly however not a Junior big gun, winning two East League titles does constitute that type of reputation. My point is that a decent team from the Juniors is winning the EOS league apparently without moving out of first gear. Also, regarding sports clubs and boys clubs, my point is that any grade with criteria that allows such clubs into the supposed fifth tier is only paying lip service to a proper pyramid, they are effectively filling the jerseys. On top of this the sixth tier offers absolutely no resistance to a decent Junior side and is of a standard parallel to the lowest level Junior grade. With the comparative set up in the SOSL being even weaker, geographically isolated and completely redundant regarding progress for Junior Clubs in the West. In short the whole thing reflects ad hoc, make do, make it up as we go along. How on earth would any big Junior club from the West ever be interested in such a system? Incidentally, thanks for yet again reminding us of the Edinburgh City, BSC and Colts results v Talbot, Talbot gave Hearts their hardest game during the run the year they pumped Hibs 5-1 in the Scottish final, it doesn't mean Talbot are bigger than Hibs. My points are valid and until they are conceded we will continue with a pyramid which is to all intents and purposes a charade! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non_sequitur Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 On 11/3/2017 at 22:38, kefc said: Load of rubbish about a community coach, you don’t even need to have a youth structure. Shippy have a licence but no sure they could afford 20 big ones 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonLichtie Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 Out of interest - how long has Tom Johnston been tap boi for the juniors, how many are there on the committee as a whole and how old are they? I was reading an article from back in 1997 (IIRC) where he was in charge then. Having someone in charge of an association for over 20 years seems absolutely absurd to me - you need to have changes at the top every so often to freshen things up and bring in new ideas etc - I'm sure very few of you disagree on that side of things. The reason I ask regarding age etc. is not to sound too morbid but no-one lives forever..... could it be that nothing will properly change at the top until Johnston and co are no longer with us?! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skipper Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 I never at any stage meant to disrespect Kelty, who are clearly a well run club. My point was that even though recently they have had some success, their league wins being fairly impressive they were not considered a Junior heavyweight, decent no doubt, ambitious clearly however not a Junior big gun, winning two East League titles does constitute that type of reputation. Two junior cup finals too. Kelty were definitely a juniors ‘big gun’. A serious rewriting of recent history to suggest otherwise. Similar to Hurlford in west region, a new kid on the block at highest level but definitely clubs you wished to avoid in early rounds of cups. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrellburn Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, SimonLichtie said: Out of interest - how long has Tom Johnston been tap boi for the juniors, how many are there on the committee as a whole and how old are they? I was reading an article from back in 1997 (IIRC) where he was in charge then. Having someone in charge of an association for over 20 years seems absolutely absurd to me - you need to have changes at the top every so often to freshen things up and bring in new ideas etc - I'm sure very few of you disagree on that side of things. The reason I ask regarding age etc. is not to sound too morbid but no-one lives forever..... could it be that nothing will properly change at the top until Johnston and co are no longer with us?! Joe Black was SJFA Secretary for season 1997-98 with Tom Johnston as his assistant. They had swapped positions for 98-99 so he has been top man for 19 years. The committee consists of President and vice president, secretary and assistant and treasurer. No idea how often they get together, only at the AGM I suspect. Edited November 8, 2017 by garrellburn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonLichtie Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 1 minute ago, Bigstanes said: It is unlawful for an employer to discriminate directly by treating an employee less favourably because of age without objective justification. Will you still consider it absurd when you have over 20 years experience with your current employers and they decide to bring in someone younger with fresh ideas? I have absolutely no idea what age Tom Johnston is, or any of the others on the committee. My point has absolutely nothing to do with age at all. For all I know, he could have been in this position from a very young age and only be in his 40s now. I don't know if you've maybe misunderstood my point? If I did my job for a prolonged period of time and was just doing the bare minimum, showing no initiative and at times being an obstacle to my clients (in Johnston's care it is obviously the members within the association that he represents) then I wouldn't be able to have much complaints about being replaced would I? Age is irrelevant to this; I'm sure there are plenty of people aged 70+ who are in a far better position to do the job than others who are middle aged or younger. I don't know much about what Tom Johnston does and doesn't do in all honestly, I'm sure a lot of posters on here know far more than me. I'm simply commenting from a slightly outside perspective, and someone who wants the best for junior football and its members, whatever that may be. Just now, garrellburn said: Joe Black was SJFA Secretary for season 1997-98 with Tom Johnton as his assistant. They had swapped positions for 98-99 so he has been top man for 19 years. The committee consists of President and vice president, secretary and assistant and treasurer. No idea how often they get together, only at the AGM I suspect. Interesting - thanks for this. Is it seen as a completely closed shop? I'm sure I read somewhere on here that there was a vote to replace Johnston, but the clubs ended up voting against it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drs Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 4 minutes ago, Bigstanes said: I have, please accept my apolgy. I'll have one on the other thread from you as well whilst you are dishing them out. If you are a new poster then maybe its best to find the lay of the land before jumping in with both feet. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrellburn Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 (edited) Don't remember any move to oust Tom Johnston, could you be confusing this with the recent vote to replace Scott Robertson as West Region secretary which failed rather regretably. He has been in the job even longer than Johnston, it seems to be the thing in junior football that you almost have to die in the job. Edited November 8, 2017 by garrellburn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 . Also, regarding sports clubs and boys clubs, my point is that any grade with criteria that allows such clubs into the supposed fifth tier is only paying lip service to a proper pyramid, they are effectively filling the jerseys. What is wrong with the tier 5 criteria?what rules would you like in place that some LL clubs don't adhere too? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, parsforlife said: What is wrong with the tier 5 criteria? what rules would you like in place that some LL clubs don't adhere too? To be fair that is a good question, however one that would need some serious consideration, because that is something that wasn't done initially in my opinion, or we wouldn't have two leagues with teams that would struggle in the lower reaches of Junior football in the sixth tier and a fifth tier with boys clubs and student clubs making up the numbers. Nothing wrong with these clubs per se, it just gives the feeling that it wasn't thought through. What we need is proper community based clubs, or at least more of them, to make up a grade that takes into account geography and makes for an attractive proposal. At the moment what we have as a pyramid is not in the least bit attractive to big Junior clubs in the West. Until we have something that would make these clubs consider joining we will always have this bizarre situation that has clubs of a low standard in a pyramid with much bigger clubs not wiling to join in because it is unatractive and downright inefficient. All the statements about progression, clubs finding their level etc is just not true under the current system. I wonder if there is another country in the world that has evolved a system where levels are so absurdly upside down? Edited November 8, 2017 by Guest 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted November 8, 2017 Author Share Posted November 8, 2017 49 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said: To be fair that is a good question, however one that would need some serious consideration, because that is something that wasn't done initially in my opinion, or we wouldn't have two leagues with teams that would struggle in the lower reaches of Junior football in the sixth tier and a fifth tier with boys clubs and student clubs making up the numbers. Nothing wrong with these clubs per se, it just gives the feeling that it wasn't thought through. What we need is proper community based clubs, or at least more of them, to make up a grade that takes into account geography and makes for an attractive proposal. At the moment what we have as a pyramid is not in the least bit attractive to big Junior clubs in the West. Until we have something that would make these clubs consider joining we will always have this bizarre situation that has clubs of a low standard in a pyramid with much bigger clubs not wiling to join in because it is unatractive and downright inefficient. All the statements about progression, clubs finding their level etc is just not true under the current system. I wonder if there is another country in the world that has evolved a system where levels are so absurdly upside down? Why don't the Junior clubs in the West take matters into their own hands and push to create a more suitable league covering Glasgow and Ayrshire? Rightly or wrongly I very much doubt anyone else is going to do it for you, and the SFA aren't going to start again from scratch. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonLichtie Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 16 hours ago, garrellburn said: Don't remember any move to oust Tom Johnston, could you be confusing this with the recent vote to replace Scott Robertson as West Region secretary which failed rather regretably. He has been in the job even longer than Johnston, it seems to be the thing in junior football that you almost have to die in the job. I expect I am - incredible to me that it seems all of the top end jobs in the juniors have been in the hands of the same men for years and years. I'm not having a go at the juniors here - but it's perfectly understandable why so many think you're stuck in the past when the guys at the top have been in these positions since the 90s, and seem to run things like it's still the 90s. Is it the same in the east? What were the main reasons for the vote to replace Scott Robertson failing do you think? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garrellburn Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 42 minutes ago, SimonLichtie said: I expect I am - incredible to me that it seems all of the top end jobs in the juniors have been in the hands of the same men for years and years. I'm not having a go at the juniors here - but it's perfectly understandable why so many think you're stuck in the past when the guys at the top have been in these positions since the 90s, and seem to run things like it's still the 90s. Is it the same in the east? What were the main reasons for the vote to replace Scott Robertson failing do you think? Not sure of the exact reasons but Kenny had canvassed clubs in person and assurances he had been given should have seen him home and dry. Obviously some either changed their mind or had lied to him in the first instance. Having been present at the vote it was not carried out in a way thar assured everyone it was beyond reproach. Two clubs out of 64 were not represented at the meeting, one had not paid its membership dues and was not allowed to vote. So far, so good. Voting slips were handed out but were not identifiable to a club in any way. They were collected and counted by two non voting persons, a West Region committee man and TJ. The result was announced as SR 32, KY 29, therefore the current incumbent was re-elected. What happened to the papers thereafter I don't know. No one raised an objection or asked for a recount with a voting member confirming the result, perhaps in the light of doubts that have since been raised a voting member should have been allowed to count the papers. My own view is that the count was accurate but that some clubs did not vote the way they had previously indicated. Can't name them with any certainty but rumours of some big influential clubs in the Glasgow area I believe to be not far off the mark. It remains to be seen whether anyone will challenge him this time, or he will stand down at last. As usual weather will result in a lot of postponements and the usual end of season fixture chaos will result and he will get the blame. However he seems impervious to personal criticism and will probably soldier on. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross. Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 12 minutes ago, garrellburn said: It remains to be seen whether anyone will challenge him this time, or he will stand down at last. As usual weather will result in a lot of postponements and the usual end of season fixture chaos will result and he will get the blame. However he seems impervious to personal criticism and will probably soldier on. He certainly deserves some of the blame. His inability to set things out with any great structure and certainty have resulted in plenty of call offs or free weekends that could otherwise be utilised, which only adds to the problems that cannot be avoided. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanCamelonfan Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 6 minutes ago, Ross. said: He certainly deserves some of the blame. His inability to set things out with any great structure and certainty have resulted in plenty of call offs or free weekends that could otherwise be utilised, which only adds to the problems that cannot be avoided. All the people criticisising the regime why don't they put their money where their mouth is and challenge to take top job at SJFA. The reality is most pSopley including myself proyally don't know half the jobs these people have to do. I'd imagine most people at the top of these associations probably have jobs. It's also ludicrous to suggest that these free weekends cause chaos because we don't have bank holidays off in the East. We didn't get scotland game off but we will still have the chaos because of the wet climate we live in. Solution smaller leagues or less cups? Moving the junior cup calendar is probadly the best fix. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross. Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Just now, AlanCamelonfan said: All the people criticisising the regime why don't they put their money where their mouth is and challenge to take top job at SJFA. The reality is most pSopley including myself proyally don't know half the jobs these people have to do. I'd imagine most people at the top of these associations probably have jobs. It's also ludicrous to suggest that these free weekends cause chaos because we don't have bank holidays off in the East. We didn't get scotland game off but we will still have the chaos because of the wet climate we live in. Solution smaller leagues or less cups? Moving the junior cup calendar is probadly the best fix. Someone did challenge last year, looked set to take over but was voted against in the end. It would probably be better to look at why people voted for the status quo as opposed to change. That in itself would likely cause a riot, with some of the rumours, innuendos, personality clashes, rivalries and perceived treatment of particular clubs all being aired, rightly or wrongly. I didn't suggest free weekends caused chaos. I suggested that it contributes. I don't just mean the bank holidays. I mean situations where teams end up free due to cup replays, to use one example, not having games scheduled against other sides that are free in order to get a fixture out the way and ease congestion later. It isn't going to fix all the issues but small things like that can certainly go some way towards helping. With the West moving to bigger top leagues from next season it will be interesting to see how things change in relation to the fixtures. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
energyzone Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 The question of the juniors being absorbed into a national senior setup isn't going away.The best thing is for a group of the bigger clubs in the West to get together and discuss it properly between themselves, without any input from the SJFA, and decide exactly what they want.I have no idea where clubs stand on this issue and have never heard of any supporters being asked their opinion either. While Talbot fans quite rightly rejected the idea (on here anyway) of joining the SOS league to gain a licence, I wonder if attitudes would change if 4 or 5 of the bigger Ayrshire teams expressed a willingness to apply alongside them? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honestly united Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 From what I can gather from this thread is that the West Junior teams dont want to join the pyramid as their is no WoS senior league, which is the SFA's fault that one hasn't been set up, and if there was a WoS league they would have something to consider. The fact their are no senior teams in the WoS outwith the LL (with the exception of Bonnyton who have just joined the SoS league, Girvan were but are now junior) to have a WoS is hardly the SFA's fault. The ideal situation would be for the West Juniors to come across en masse as a bolt on under the LL as a WoS league, or if they could get 7 or 8 interested clubs to start a new WoS league if there is an objection. I mean it can be run any worse than the west juniors are at present. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanCamelonfan Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Someone alleged the west fixture secretary the first time that there has been a challenge to anyone not Johnstone or any presidential position 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmontheloknow Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 4 hours ago, AlanCamelonfan said: Someone alleged the west fixture secretary the first time that there has been a challenge to anyone not Johnstone or any presidential position As TJ is a salaried employee out of Hampden, is his position even challengable by SJFA members? I ask a genuine question. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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