Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

Most people in positions of responsibilty in the game would like to turn the clock back about 50 years, or more. But if you don't change while the world around you changes, the only result is failure and oblivion.
Anyone want to join the party?

Thanks for the post and some food for thought however your last paragraph is the one that resonates.

The world around the SJFA changed but they refused to join the party. They still endorse the archaic re-instatement rule, a rule from 50+ years ago. How does this change? The clubs force the change, but none of them ever do.

For for all the good that individual volunteers do within the game, we're collectively on the road to oblivion if we don't open our eyes to reality.

Like it or not, dinosaurs is what in many ways we are. There's many in the Junior game holding it back.

[Burnie_man]

9 hours ago, Che Dail said:

It's this mystical aura around 'the Juniors' that most folk sitting outside it cannot get their head around - it's local football for goodness sake.  

There's plenty of people in the Junior game who truly the believe that "The Juniors" is some sort of special form of football that needs protected and the Scottish Junior Cup is the "Holy Grail" of football.   It's hard to change those mindsets.

[GLENAFTON93]

38 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

There's plenty of people in the Junior game who truly the believe that "The Juniors" is some sort of special form of football that needs protected and the Scottish Junior Cup is the "Holy Grail" of football.   It's hard to change those mindsets.

 And what is wrong with thinking winning the Junior Cup is the Holy Grail , why would you want to change  that mindset.    What is wrong with you  when the national cup competition open to all association members is looked at with such a flippant comment . 

[drs]

Because its such an insular and outdated view.

There is a world out there beyond the Juniors but too many people are unwilling to look at progressing their club to the next level of Scottish football. 

Anyway I'd take a league title over the cup any day of the week - that's beating the best every week for 30 games, whilst a cup win may only see you play a couple of top flight teams.

[GLENAFTON93]

What is outdated and insular about winning a national cup  in any grade ,  winning both is even better. 

[Cyclizine]

What is outdated and insular about winning a national cup  in any grade ,  winning both is even better.[emoji4] 

There's nothing outdated about winning a national cup. The idea that somehow there's separate grades of football is. [Clichés ahead] At the end of the day, there's eleven players trying to score more goals than another eleven in order to win a game. Surely the junior cup can only be enriched by the addition of more teams?

[energyzone]

Because its such an insular and outdated view.
There is a world out there beyond the Juniors but too many people are unwilling to look at progressing their club to the next level of Scottish football. 
Anyway I'd take a league title over the cup any day of the week - that's beating the best every week for 30 games, whilst a cup win may only see you play a couple of top flight teams.

Two points - the Scottish cup is the only national competition at this level and the final is a day out as opposed to a league title which might be won when the champions aren't even playing, as a consequence of a competitor losing.

[Burnie_man]

 And what is wrong with thinking winning the Junior Cup is the Holy Grail , why would you want to change  that mindset.    What is wrong with you  when the national cup competition open to all association members is looked at with such a flippant comment . 

When it is used as an excuse not to join the Pyramid (and it is by many)

[GLENAFTON93]

22 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

 

When it is used as an excuse not to join the Pyramid (and it is by many)

 

I have maybe missed that excuse ,  the point of my answer to you was why you thought the winning of our nation cup competition could not be justified as the pinnacle in our grade or any grade .  Why do  you again think that a pyramid mention in that statement is relevent .

[Burnie_man]

11 minutes ago, GLENAFTON93 said:

I have maybe missed that excuse ,  the point of my answer to you was why you thought the winning of our nation cup competition could not be justified as the pinnacle in our grade or any grade .  Why do  you again think that a pyramid mention in that statement is relevent .

It's an excuse used regularly by our head Blazer.  I didn't mention anything about the stature of the cup itself, my point was that it is used as an excuse to block progress, as if progress meant losing the Holy Grail (c) TJ

[Burnie_man]

Some thoughts as to where we could potentially be a few years down the line, for illustration purposes (hope the attachment works). It's a best guess from me as to what season 2021-2022 could look like.

It’s a fairly straightforward and simple solution at the outset, you just plug the existing Junior leagues below the EoSFL, and in the West let the Superleague form the basis of a new WoSFL.  In the East, you let the current members stay where they are, the weakest will fall down the leagues fairly quickly (or let them move to a lower level voluntarily).

Very little changes for the vast majority of current Junior clubs, they carry on as before, they still enter the “Scottish Junior Cup”, they’ll still enter the East (and West) of Scotland Cups.  The EoSFL becomes dominated by former Junior clubs, the LL now has 6 or 7 former Junior clubs as members (all Licenced).  The weaker LL and EoSFL clubs have dropped down to various levels in the Pyramid.

In the West, the structure is basically what will be implemented next season, with SoSFL involved in some way either fully integrated or as a separate division.  I’ve included Rangers and Celtic B teams in a WoSFL as I think that is going to happen at some point like it or not (if not, it doesn’t really alter anything).

One problem with this solution is the clubs north of the Tay who, according to the SFA, should play in the HL system. I think short term you let them remain in the LL system and let them move to a revamped HL/North Juniors system if they wish, or allow them to stay.  The boundary can be fluid. Again, keeping it simple and not forcing major change on clubs from the outset.

The key is to get everyone (or the majority) on board by making it as simple and straightforward as you can, nobody likes major change. Once everyone has bought into it and it happens, then you can start tinkering with further regionalisation of the lower reaches (eg. the existing East Premier might go and clubs regionalised instead). Who runs all this?  well a combination of existing LL/EoSFL/SoSFL/SJFA officials under the auspices of the SFA, with more funding available to EoSFL/WoSFL clubs to gain an SFA Licence with the target that by 2022, all LL, EoSL and WoSL clubs have a Licence, and by 2028, all clubs in the LL system have a Licence where possible.

Thoughts? are there any showstoppers in here? anything that Junior clubs should be afraid of?   Ideally IMO you have a Lowland League West, but I dont think that has any chance of happening and over time the number of West v East clubs in the LL will balance out.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Burnie_man

[Garret Deasy]

3 hours ago, Bishoptonbankie said:

Coal mining has a story too, but it died. Steelworks had a story but they all closed down.
Things with good stories do tend to die off as well, really don't get your point.
The SJFA are a bunch of dinosaurs, its a completely accurate description.
I fail to see how twitter updates generate income.

Coal mines died, steelworks died, shipbuilding died, but the history created by these has not died. It is alive and kicking in so many junior clubs, but unfortunately many of those proud of that heritage find it awkward to share it with Maggie Thatcher's children.  From those who work at the SFA chasing the dosh, to those who ask 'how much money has been made from sharing scores on Twitter'.  You can do things which are for the common good. 

I am not here to compare club against club. Only interesting in discussing what is best for the junior game. Simple as that.

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, Garret Deasy said:

Coal mines died, steelworks died, shipbuilding died, but the history created by these has not died. It is alive and kicking in so many junior clubs, but unfortunately many of those proud of that heritage find it awkward to share it with Maggie Thatcher's children.  From those who work at the SFA chasing the dosh, to those who ask 'how much money has been made from sharing scores on Twitter'.  You can do things which are for the common good. 

I am not here to compare club against club. Only interesting in discussing what is best for the junior game. Simple as that.

So what in your opinion is best for the Junior game in the medium to long term, seeking integration with the Pyramid in whatever form, or continuing down its own path outside of it?

The world of mining, shipbuilding and steel making,  in which Junior clubs thrived has long since disappeared and whilst we all want to record and remember the history of those days, it has zero influence on where the game is headed in future.

 

[Cyclizine]

Coal mines died, steelworks died, shipbuilding died, but the history created by these has not died. It is alive and kicking in so many junior clubs, but unfortunately many of those proud of that heritage find it awkward to share it with Maggie Thatcher's children.  From those who work at the SFA chasing the dosh, to those who ask 'how much money has been made from sharing scores on Twitter'.  You can do things which are for the common good. 
I am not here to compare club against club. Only interesting in discussing what is best for the junior game. Simple as that.

There's nothing wrong about promoting heritage and remembering history. Unfortunately, times have changed. What was successful in an era of Saturday morning shifts, thriving pit communities, full employment and less competition on time is sadly not as relevant today. You can't close your eyes and stuck your fingers in your ears and ignore the significant societal changes that have happened in the last 50-odd years.

We shouldn't be asking "What can we do to make junior football relevant today", but what can we do to make the whole Scottish game relevant and self-sustaining - from the youth and recreational games and all the way up to the professional game.

As I've said many times on here, I don't see how the artificial and disjointed structures we have created over the years should be seen as the only way. A unified structure is years overdue. I think it's inevitable it will happen. It will involve some blazers from all sides making concessions - some will be unhappy.

[archieb]

Whether or not you think an all-encompassing pyramid is the correct goal to aim for, important barriers have to be broken down beforehand, and the first move needs to come from the SJFA - not its administrators, its member clubs via motions to the SJFA AGM.

In this task I see 3 priorities.

1. Abolish reinstatement.

2. Replace the word 'Junior' with 'Semi-Professional' or some other more sensible term that can in time encompass all non-league clubs, or at least those above Amateur level.

3. Invite clubs in the EoSFL, SoSFL and NCL to participate in what was the Scottish Junior Cup, with the ultimate aim that this will develop into a competition for all non-League clubs (or at least those 'above' Amateur & Welfare level). That way no ex-Junior club joining the pyramid need lose out and the ex-SJC acquires more credibility ... maybe even attracts a sponsor!

 

[Burnie_man]

In the very short term the re-instatement rule can be abolished at next years AGM simply by a club proposing it and a majority of clubs accepting it. Job done. The SFA don’t recognise the rule anyway and it is an anachronism.

The same with inviting other participants to the Junior Cup, that can be proposed, debated and voted upon. Doesn’t guarantee that these clubs would be interested (I have my doubts that they would due to fixture scheduling issues) but it shows a willingness to engage.

On the final point of the Junior name, I’m not sure we waste our energy on debating a name change (which would be controversial anyway) as hopefully at some point the Juniors as a separate body cease to exist and we all become just football clubs under the one overall body. Not Junior, not Senior.

The “Working Party” mentioned previously should be looking at these, and other issues anyway, and it would be enlightening to know just what their mandate is and whether they are going to seek any constructive feedback from member clubs and from supporters.  Third party survey companies can easily co-ordinate this if the SJFA really want meaningful feedback.

[Mr.Albert]

The future of the junior game in my opinion is

1  Junior Football is not regarded to level it once was because of the football academys set up by the SPFL Clubs players who used to be loaned out to the Juniors are put through the academy system.       Amateur teams are now attracting players who would have went to junior clubs,  there is not the same regard for Junior Football as there used to be.

2  The profile of junior football is at an all time low through lack of interest  we struggle to get a sponsor for our flagship competition which is one of the oldest cup in the world.    It is stagnating through lack of investment, lack of leadership, the saying we have always done it this way is rife.

3  Most clubs have small committees of a certain age and there is no younger people coming through to replace them so there will be clubs but no people to run them.

4  Crowds are dwindling due to lack of interest early kick offs on the telly. 

5 But there are positives that the Juniors can bring and can develop,  Junior football is the peoples game,  best value for money,   for a tenner you can get in to watch the game,  pie and a Bovril,  watch good honest guys giving the best they can, and also the people you meet home and away at the game.

There are clubs who have got forward thinking guys on their committees who the SJFA should be approaching for ideas and help  to promote and move the game forward,  clubs like Gartcairn,  Wishaw, St. Rochs,  St Anthonys and I sure there are more who if you look at there Facebook,  websites, Twitter are always coming up with ideas be it for sponsorship or using social media. These clubs are also investing in the community also getting back to were the juniors started from.

We need investment, leadership, open conversation on how the juniors move forward, leave your egos at the door and bring the game into the 21st Century. 

[eamonn]

i would jazz it up with a Strathclde mega super league with maybe sixteen team's. i would allow eight teams permanent status with no threat of relegation ! they would be Irvine meadow , Kilbirnie Ladeside , Auchinleck Talbot , Cumnock , Pollok , Petershill, Arthurlie and Kilwinning Rangers ... the Scottish cup final would be  held at Hampden  . also summer football must be introduced asp ... you know it makes sense a fair set up for everyone

[theshed]

i would jazz it up with a Strathclde mega super league with maybe sixteen team's. i would allow eight teams permanent status with no threat of relegation ! they would be Irvine meadow , Kilbirnie Ladeside , Auchinleck Talbot , Cumnock , Pollok , Petershill, Arthurlie and Kilwinning Rangers ... the Scottish cup final would be  held at Hampden  . also summer football must be introduced asp ... you know it makes sense a fair set up for everyone

Away you and build your model tanks ...........

[drs]

24 minutes ago, eamonn said:

i would jazz it up with a Strathclde mega super league with maybe sixteen team's. i would allow eight teams permanent status with no threat of relegation ! they would be Irvine meadow , Kilbirnie Ladeside , Auchinleck Talbot , Cumnock , Pollok , Petershill, Arthurlie and Kilwinning Rangers ... the Scottish cup final would be  held at Hampden  . also summer football must be introduced asp ... you know it makes sense a fair set up for everyone

That's quite possibly the worst post I've ever read on here and this board has SuperBigAl on it.