Junior football, what is the future?

[Sergeant Wilson]

2 minutes ago, kenny131 said:

Plenty clubs would make it and it's what is needed it would mean completely scrapping the juniors altogether with a pyramid the rest go amatuer, this for me would see lots of clubs improving infrastructure of the years and make things more professional to long has the status quo been here and it's suffocating our national game into almost being irrelevant. For me the SFA have 1 last chance to halt the incredible decline of our game nation wide and pyramiding the lot is the way to go. This would open  up more money flowing across the divisions meaning more investment which means more talent coming through it's not rocket science. Unfortunately there only concern is keeping money at the top and in the blazers pockets.

That's fine as long as there is a grace period to get work done and a scheme to front up the money to pay for it.

[Hillonearth]

1 hour ago, patriot1 said:

If all junior clubs were part of the pyramid then you would have plenty of local games and much less travel.

Granted, but that wasn't the point I was making, as I was talking from the perspective of West Region clubs for whom joining the current pyramid would be untenable, geared as it is for the south-east of the country - perhaps understandably so given the fact that the LL is to all intents and purposes a rebranding of the old EoS Premier.

We're also so far in this thread guilty of largely ignoring the situation in the North Region, where the Highland League has gobbled up the advantages of the pyramid as previously detailed and given nothing in return, offering no pathway in and pulling up the drawbridge so that sides such as Banks O'Dee - with a ground and team that would scud the majority of the current SHFL - haven't currently got a hope of getting in.

So, to sum up:

East: Functioning pyramid.

West: "Promotion" to the SoS, then into the East-centric LL - perhaps unsurprisingly no takers.

North: Get yerselves tae f**k. We're full.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Hillonearth

[Burnie_man]

2 hours ago, kenny131 said:

If up to me then I would just pyramid all the leagues like a dictatorship and anyone who doesnt want to be in it can feck off to the amatuers.

 

 

Well if the SFA were remotely interested with the health of the game at all levels, that's exactly what they should be doing. 

However, they're as shambolic as the SJFA and think they have a perfectly workable Pyramid and aren't interested, and the SJFA aren't asking.

[Hillonearth]

2 hours ago, kenny131 said:

If up to me then I would just pyramid all the leagues like a dictatorship and anyone who doesnt want to be in it can feck off to the amatuers. Floodlights would also have to be installed if clubs can't afford it they too can clear off to the amatuers.

Obviously that's extreme but in scotland people can't agree the colour of shite so make the decision for them. The whole set up we have now through out scottish football is just ridiculous and geared to keep the money between the top clubs, instead of moving the game forward across the board.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Well if the SFA were remotely interested with the health of the game at all levels, that's exactly what they should be doing. 

However, they're as shambolic as the SJFA and think they have a perfectly workable Pyramid and aren't interested, and the SJFA aren't asking.

Really? By my calculations, applying the "floodlights or beat it to the amateurs" criterion cited would leave us with a cosy ten teams in the West and maybe the same in the East.

Not too many of those are anywhere near being the strongest teams either; no Pollok, Talbot, Beith, Hurlford, Glenafton or Clydebank - out East, no Bo'ness, Bonnyrigg, Camelon, Lochee or Penicuik, just to give a few examples.

And that's ostensibly going to improve the health of the game? 

Sometimes you need to take a step back and temper your undoubted enthusiasm for an ideal with a dose of pragmatism. The pyramid is a great idea in priniciple, but the implementation of  what we've got at the moment has been fundamentally flawed from day one.

 

[Che Dail]

25 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

 

Really? By my calculations, applying the "floodlights or beat it to the amateurs" criterion cited would leave us with a cosy ten teams in the West and maybe the same in the East.

Not too many of those are anywhere near being the strongest teams either; no Pollok, Talbot, Beith, Hurlford, Glenafton or Clydebank - out East, no Bo'ness, Bonnyrigg, Camelon, Lochee or Penicuik, just to give a few examples.

At the moment clubs don't need to have floodlights for entry level SFA license.

Penicuik do have lights though, and Bonnyrigg I believe were considering installing them.

[kenny131]

1 hour ago, Hillonearth said:

 

Really? By my calculations, applying the "floodlights or beat it to the amateurs" criterion cited would leave us with a cosy ten teams in the West and maybe the same in the East.

Not too many of those are anywhere near being the strongest teams either; no Pollok, Talbot, Beith, Hurlford, Glenafton or Clydebank - out East, no Bo'ness, Bonnyrigg, Camelon, Lochee or Penicuik, just to give a few examples.

And that's ostensibly going to improve the health of the game? 

Sometimes you need to take a step back and temper your undoubted enthusiasm for an ideal with a dose of pragmatism. The pyramid is a great idea in priniciple, but the implementation of  what we've got at the moment has been fundamentally flawed from day one.

 

Did I say who had them now, the clubs you say that don't would get them. Sometimes you need to take a step forward and not stay and die a slow lingering death

Edited October 24, 2017 by kenny131

[AlanCamelonfan]

All fantasy at the moment. I enjoy going to the Lowland League games involving the Shire. I like the Juniors being different. I don't see Junior clubs being part of the pyramid is going to fundamentally change scottish football. The pot would get smaller. The Lowland league clubs aren't well supported. Junior numbers probably are falling but the people who go are going for cheap football, local football but known teams. The vast majority of people probably know what the Juniors is but not the Lowland League.

 

At a Shire Match I was at one of the players brother brought his girlfriend and the girl asked if this was a Junior game and the guy obviously explained.

[TheLad]

It'll get nowhere unless they change it to a Focus Group.

With blue sky thinking

[Dreghorn]

Could the working party on league reconstruction allow fans their say by publishing contact details?

[Glenconner]

6 hours ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

All fantasy at the moment. I enjoy going to the Lowland League games involving the Shire. I like the Juniors being different. I don't see Junior clubs being part of the pyramid is going to fundamentally change scottish football. The pot would get smaller. The Lowland league clubs aren't well supported. Junior numbers probably are falling but the people who go are going for cheap football, local football but known teams. The vast majority of people probably know what the Juniors is but not the Lowland League.

 

At a Shire Match I was at one of the players brother brought his girlfriend and the girl asked if this was a Junior game and the guy obviously explained.

East Stirlingshire as against Glasgow Perthshire, just to clarify.

[Burnie_man]

11 hours ago, Hillonearth said:

 

Really? By my calculations, applying the "floodlights or beat it to the amateurs" criterion cited would leave us with a cosy ten teams in the West and maybe the same in the East.

Not too many of those are anywhere near being the strongest teams either; no Pollok, Talbot, Beith, Hurlford, Glenafton or Clydebank - out East, no Bo'ness, Bonnyrigg, Camelon, Lochee or Penicuik, just to give a few examples.

And that's ostensibly going to improve the health of the game? 

Sometimes you need to take a step back and temper your undoubted enthusiasm for an ideal with a dose of pragmatism. The pyramid is a great idea in priniciple, but the implementation of  what we've got at the moment has been fundamentally flawed from day one.

 

The point I was responding to was that the game needs someone to take it by the scruff of the neck (a dictator was the term used) to sort this mess out. That is what I was agreeing with, however the reality is that nobody is interested at the moment.

Re facilities, the underlying point being made is that facilities would need to be improved within a set amount of time, most top clubs have the ability to finance this with the available grant aid, but currently there's no obligation to do so and it's spent on players instead. Hence why Junior football is largely bereft of modern day basics such as floodlights with no ability to play midweek games in winter.

 

[Burnie_man]

10 hours ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

All fantasy at the moment. I enjoy going to the Lowland League games involving the Shire. I like the Juniors being different. I don't see Junior clubs being part of the pyramid is going to fundamentally change scottish football. The pot would get smaller. The Lowland league clubs aren't well supported. Junior numbers probably are falling but the people who go are going for cheap football, local football but known teams. The vast majority of people probably know what the Juniors is but not the Lowland League.

 

At a Shire Match I was at one of the players brother brought his girlfriend and the girl asked if this was a Junior game and the guy obviously explained.

As explained many times, a Pyramid doesn’t change much for 90% of Junior clubs, they’ll still largely be playing in the same divisions against the same teams with the odd former SPFL/LL/EoS/SoS team in the mix as well.  You’ll still watch East Stirlingshire, and you’ll still watch Camelon, perhaps at the same level or perhaps at different levels.  In the East at least, the likes of Bonnyrigg, Bo’ness, Linlithgow, Penicuik etc will over time replace the Hawick’s and Selkirk’s of the LL who would find their own level maybe playing Haddington and Dunbar.  The LL would eventually become dominated by former Junior clubs.

The difference of course is that there is no glass ceiling or artificial divisions, and perhaps the game will be more professionally run. However, we’ve been over this lots of times.

Here’s hoping that whatever this SJFA working party is discussing, it’s about moving the game forward and integration with the Pyramid in some form, and not just about defending Junior fitba and continued isolationism.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Burnie_man

[garrellburn]

11 hours ago, TheLad said:

With blue sky thinking

It's Scotland your in, we only have grey sky thinking.

[sixty61]

Well if the SFA were remotely interested with the health of the game at all levels, that's exactly what they should be doing. 
However, they're as shambolic as the SJFA and think they have a perfectly workable Pyramid and aren't interested, and the SJFA aren't asking.

[non_sequitur]

Its time Shippy played Kirkcaldy Crossgates Rosyth Oakley as equals in the same league its madness that we cannae dae it and have to go to the Borders every other week

[non_sequitur]

On ‎24‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 22:56, TheLad said:

With blue sky thinking

Its Scottish fitba there wulnae be any thinking just hot air

[Cyclizine]

As far as the SFA is concerned, there is a senior league for west clubs - it's the South of Scotland League - which has and has had clubs from Ayrshire. When there's clubs from D&G already in the West Juniors, there's not really any argument that it isn't, 'quality' aside.

[Hillonearth]

1 hour ago, Cyclizine said:

As far as the SFA is concerned, there is a senior league for west clubs - it's the South of Scotland League - which has and has had clubs from Ayrshire. When there's clubs from D&G already in the West Juniors, there's not really any argument that it isn't, 'quality' aside.

A grand total of two anomalous cases in recent memory; Girvan who went SoS > Ayrshire IIRC because the standard was better and they were finding it difficult to attract players due to the amount of travel involved, and Kello who are just over the D&G border and no more.

Anyone - SFA included - who seriously want to put forward the argument that there's any real congruence between the West Junior and SoS geographical footprints needs to put down "Map of Scotland" on their Christmas lists ASAP...

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, Cyclizine said:

As far as the SFA is concerned, there is a senior league for west clubs - it's the South of Scotland League - which has and has had clubs from Ayrshire. When there's clubs from D&G already in the West Juniors, there's not really any argument that it isn't, 'quality' aside.

East Kilbride are members of the EoSFA that runs the East of Scotland League, so it's not fully clear that applies in the Glasgow area as well as in Ayrshire.

[Cyclizine]

A grand total of two anomalous cases in recent memory; Girvan who went SoS > Ayrshire IIRC because the standard was better and they were finding it difficult to attract players due to the amount of travel involved, and Kello who are just over the D&G border and no more.
Anyone - SFA included - who seriously want to put forward the argument that there's any real congruence between the West Junior and SoS geographical footprints needs to put down "Map of Scotland" on their Christmas lists ASAP...

I don't disagree, but I don't think you can just write off Dumfries and Galloway. Say, taking an example, one of the Dumfries teams decided that their fortunes lay in the Juniors, would they not get admitted to the West Region? You can't just ignore outlying areas, otherwise you'd be excluding a bit insignificant number of teams.