pyramid my horse!

[HenryHill]

On 2017-5-22 at 01:58, Brummo said:

Alright, alright, calm down, calm down.

Explanation: I started this thread because...

At the end of the day, there was no relegation and the top two teams were promoted - just in fact the way it was before the trapdoor and the play-offs were introduced.

"My point caller" was that for all the innovation brought in, including changing the league names, and for all the eagerness of the Trapdoorwatch lurkers, nothing much had changed. 

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose, so to speak.

(And yes, there are many French people in Montrose.)

As an auld git, I don't mind in the slightest. 

I also am delighted the Blue Paraguay managed to stay up. Congratulations.

I like the playoffs and dislike people using another language when it is a unnecessary in the middle of text.

[Hammerafc]

There really aught to be automatic relegation from League Two in addition to a play off spot for 9th.

I agree that automatic relegation should be considered but not a playoff for 9th. 1 down and a playoff between highland and lowland for going up.

[Cannibal]

18 hours ago, Enigma said:

There really aught to be automatic relegation from League Two in addition to a play off spot for 9th.

Why? 

[JakeSAFC]

Why? 

Because the team that finishes last should not have a life line to stay up, they should be relegated for finishing bottom.

[MO7S]

??

[HibeeJibee]

19 hours ago, Hammerafc said:

I agree that automatic relegation should be considered but not a playoff for 9th. 1 down and a playoff between highland and lowland for going up.

As a stepping-stone moving to 1 down would be good. However if there is to be equity in the long-term clear 9th needs to be in a playoff, too, like the levels above.

[Gordon EF]

Having an automatic relegation spot would also make it quite a bit easier for relegated teams to get back up.

Part of the fear of relegation is that it's a bit of a nightmare to get back. Win your league then two play-off games.

[wulliemc]

That is a good point re getting back up

[Hammerafc]

As a stepping-stone moving to 1 down would be good. However if there is to be equity in the long-term clear 9th needs to be in a playoff, too, like the levels above.

Personally I don't think there needs to be equity as 2 to go into non league is to much from a 10 team league. The other playoffs are about moving divisions within the league structure which is different imo.

[parsforlife]

Personally I don't think there needs to be equity as 2 to go into non league is to much from a 10 team league. The other playoffs are about moving divisions within the league structure which is different imo.

Why is it different?

We need to get away from the idea that relegation to non league is any more of a disaster than between championship and league 1 for example. It's not permanent ffs.

[lichtgilphead]

16 hours ago, JakeSAFC said:

 

Because the team that finishes last should not have a life line to stay up, they should be relegated for finishing bottom.

 

That might be a reasonable argument if the team that finished last in league 2 were demonstrably worse than the winners of the HL/LL playoff.

In the playoff games so far, it could be argued that Montrose & Cowden deserved to win, and Shire were slightly unlucky to lose.

There is no point in promoting more poor teams to L2 to replace teams that have been poor in the last few seasons. Edinburgh deserve their place, as they managed to finish 7th. Hopefully the next team to come up can emulate this achievement. 

However, if a team wants to play L2, they should be capable of getting there on their own merits, not just because Montrose or Cowden (or anyone else!) have compounded a cash crisis with a poor managerial selection.

[JakeSAFC]

That might be a reasonable argument if the team that finished last in league 2 were demonstrably worse than the winners of the HL/LL playoff.
In the playoff games so far, it could be argued that Montrose & Cowden deserved to win, and Shire were slightly unlucky to lose.
There is no point in promoting more poor teams to L2 to replace teams that have been poor in the last few seasons. Edinburgh deserve their place, as they managed to finish 7th. Hopefully the next team to come up can emulate this achievement. 
However, if a team wants to play L2, they should be capable of getting there on their own merits, not just because Montrose or Cowden (or anyone else!) have compounded a cash crisis with a poor managerial selection.

Shouldnt matter if they are worse or better, they finished last, bottom of the pile. They should be relegated for that, not given a chance of survival for it.

[lichtgilphead]

1 minute ago, JakeSAFC said:

 

Shouldnt matter if they are worse or better, they finished last, bottom of the pile. They should be relegated for that, not given a chance of survival for it.

 

Why?

What if the Binos finish bottom next year and Cove win the playoffs, yet the whole world agree that Stirling would win a 2-legged playoff by 8 clear goals?

 

[HibeeJibee]

4 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

That might be a reasonable argument if the team that finished last in league 2 were demonstrably worse than the winners of the HL/LL playoff.

In the playoff games so far, it could be argued that Montrose & Cowden deserved to win, and Shire were slightly unlucky to lose.

There is no point in promoting more poor teams to L2 to replace teams that have been poor in the last few seasons. Edinburgh deserve their place, as they managed to finish 7th. Hopefully the next team to come up can emulate this achievement. 

However, if a team wants to play L2, they should be capable of getting there on their own merits, not just because Montrose or Cowden (or anyone else!) have compounded a cash crisis with a poor managerial selection.

That's the sort of argument that has people from clubs above and below ridicule us for protectionism and lacking ambition. If there's little difference between the clubs the only thing in our favour is "we got here first". Ayr have gone straight back down to SPFL1 from Championship, and Brechin will be predicted to do similarly - is anyone saying scrap playoff to enter tier 2?

You can also flip the argument and say Montrose were losing with 15min left, 'Shire lost, and Cowden only won on pens.


Point in italics can also be made in any level above or below.

[lichtgilphead]

Just now, HibeeJibee said:

That's the sort of argument that has people from clubs above and below ridicule us for protectionism and lacking ambition. If there's little difference between the clubs the only thing in our favour is "we got here first". Ayr have gone straight back down to SPFL1 from Championship, and Brechin will be predicted to do similarly - is anyone saying scrap playoff to enter tier 2?

You can also flip the argument and say Montrose were losing with 15min left, 'Shire lost, and Cowden only won on pens.


Point in italics can also be made in any level above or below.

Agreed, but that's why a playoff should be necessary. Once the LL/HL winner is demonstrably superior to the incumbent clubs, I would agree with automatic relegation to the National league.

Until then, however, I would advocate the 'prove you're better over 2 legs' approach

[parsforlife]

It needs to be remembered that teams are pretty much guaranteed to improve there squads following promotion. LL East Kilbride drawing against l2 Cowdenbeath isn't the same as saying East Kilbride as a l2 side would also finish bottom

[lichtgilphead]

3 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

It needs to be remembered that teams are pretty much guaranteed to improve there squads following promotion. LL East Kilbride drawing against l2 Cowdenbeath isn't the same as saying East Kilbride as a l2 side would also finish bottom

Agreed, but that point applies to every team in L2. You can't predict how good the side will be based upon the previous season's performance

Arbroath have won 2 league flags in the last decade, but finished 10th & 9th in the previous seasons. On both occasions, the bookies had them no lower than 3rd or 4th favourites (I would rather have had 250/1 instead of the 4/1 or 5/1 I actually bet at!)

All I'm saying is that at this time, the LL & HL sides firstly need to show that they are better & then confirm it by retaining their position. Surely that's not to much to ask of a side that is demonstrably better than the also-rans in L2?

[JakeSAFC]

Why?
What if the Binos finish bottom next year and Cove win the playoffs, yet the whole world agree that Stirling would win a 2-legged playoff by 8 clear goals?
 

If we were to finish bottom I would still be saying the same thing. A club that finishes bottom should not be handed a chance of survival, they should be automatically relegated for being the shittest team in the league.

[cowdenbeath]

3 hours ago, JakeSAFC said:

 

If we were to finish bottom I would still be saying the same thing. A club that finishes bottom should not be handed a chance of survival, they should be automatically relegated for being the shittest team in the league.

 

Easy to say until it happens.

Re the other bit everyone knows from day one that is the position the non league sides are in a better position than they were a few years ago re getting into the SPFL.

[MOFOREVER]

There are good arguments on both sides but the fact remains that there are very few LL and HL sides who actually want promotion and have the off field facilities or whatever to support it. Ok there are maybe half a dozen who really want it so lets say they get promotion within a decade or so and half a dozen of the more established clubs are relegated - what then? Presumably it becomes a bit of a merry-go-round with several clubs becoming yo-yo teams that is if they survive at all. Look at the lists of teams in the LL and the HL, how many are potential clubs to replace say, Clyde, Stirling, Berwick, Montrose, Cowden or anybody else who has a bad season, even a few bad seasons. 

I can see the argument of those saying the pyramid is fair and there can be no reasonable argument against that but is it benefiting Scottish football in general? 

Why not increase from 42 clubs to include those who want promotion and satisfy the facility etc. requirements. I know that would dilute sponsorship money or whatever the pool of money is called that feeds down to L2 but a diluted amount might be better than relegation and provide more security to those who invest in small league clubs.

Those who haven't yet suffered to agonies that Mo, Shire and Cowden have in the last three years but do suffer it next season or the season after - might change their tune a bit - somebody is going to finish 10th but the clubs who have been there or thereabouts haven't always been Shire or the Mo - Arbroath, Stirling, Clyde, Cowden all spring to mind - could be Stenny next year unless they snap out of their slumber.

As I say, it might be fair but is it doing any good overall or is there a better way to improve Scottish football?