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2017/18 League Cup


craigkillie

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The SPFL have announced that the draw for the group stage of next season's League Cup will take place on 2nd June.  East Kilbride and Buckie Thistle will both enter the tournament for the first time.  Celtic and Aberdeen have already assured byes to the 2nd Round, and Rangers will almost certainly join them.  The final bye will probably go to either St Johnstone or Hearts, although Partick Thistle can still finish 4th too.

Assuming they follow last season's format, the remaining Premiership clubs plus the top 8 from this season's Championship will be seeded - they will be split evenly into North and South pots.  The other 24 clubs will be unseeded and will also be divided evenly into North and South groups.

Most of the north/south distinctions are fairly obvious, but there are likely to be a few anomalies.  Last year Dumbarton had to play in the Northern section due to the uneven geographical balance of the seeded sides, and something similar could happen this season depending on who qualifies for Europe and who ends up securing safety in the Championship.

 

Seeded Sides

We already know 12 of the 16 seeded sides - they will be joined by whoever ends up finishing 5th and 6th in the Premiership, and 7th and 8th in the Championship.  Of those 12 sides, there are 6 who are clearly going to be in the North section and 5 who will be in the South group.  Hibs are the one team who are "in the middle" and could potentially go either way.

As things stand, Hearts, Partick Thistle, Dumbarton and Raith would end up in this round.  That would probably lead to Dumbarton and Raith going to the North section, and Hearts, Thistle and Hibs going to the south.

However, if one of St Mirren or Ayr finish ahead of Raith or Dumbarton, then they would clearly go to the South section, and that would lead Hearts or Hibs being sent to the North unless Hearts finished ahead of St Johnstone.  If both St Mirren and Ayr escape the bottom two, then both Hearts/St Johnstone and Hibs would probably end up in the Northern section.

 

North

Ross County
Dundee
Inverness
Falkirk
Dundee United
Dunfermline

 

South

Kilmarnock
Hamilton
Motherwell
Morton
Queen of the South
 

Uncertain

Hibernian

 

+2 of Rangers (S)/St Johnstone (N)/Hearts (N/S)/Partick Thistle (S)
+2 of Dumbarton (N/S)/Raith (N)/St Mirren (S)/Ayr (S)

 

 

Unseeded Sides

22 of the 24 unseeded sides are already known, and they will be joined by whoever finishes 9th and 10th in the Championship.  Of those 22 sides, 11 are clearly bound for the North section, and 10 for the South, but Stenhousemuir could potentially go either way.

3 of the 4 potential Championship entrants would play in the South section (although Dumbarton could end up in the North section if they are seeded, if they end up being unseeded then they will almost certainly be in the South).  That means that if Raith avoid the bottom two, Stenhousemuir will go North, but if Raith end up unseeded then Stenhousemuir will go South.

North

Alloa Athletic
East Fife
Brechin City
Peterhead
Forfar Athletic
Arbroath
Montrose
Elgin City
Stirling Albion
Buckie Thistle
Cowdenbeath

 

South

Airdrie
Queen's Park
Albion Rovers
Stranraer
Annan Athletic
Clyde
Berwick Rangers
East Kilbride
Livingston
Edinburgh City



Uncertain

Stenhousemuir

+2 of Dumbarton (S)/Raith (N)/St Mirren (S)/Ayr (S)

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Great having group stages but would like to have a play off round for all runners up rather than best 4 going through so more meaningful games and reasonable chance to progress

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Lower divisions ended yesterday. Partick can't qualify for EL and it's a tall order for Hearts now.

Unless they managed to overhaul St Johnstone this would be the breakdown AFAICS. If they did just swap St Johnstone for Hearts.

Actually works-out quite well geographically although some oddities (most notably Edinburgh City). Possibility of Dundee / Edinburgh derbies.



North Pot 1: Hearts, Dundee, Inverness, Ross County

North Pot 2: Dunfermline, Dundee Utd, Falkirk, Hibs

South Unseeded: Alloa, Arbroath, Brechin, Buckie, Cowdenbeath, East Fife, Elgin, Forfar, Montrose, Peterhead, Raith, Stirling



South Pot 1: Hamilton, Kilmarnock, Motherwell, Partick

South Pot 2: Dumbarton, Greenock Morton, QotS, St Mirren

South Unseeded: Airdrie, Albion Rovers, Annan, Ayr, Berwick, Clyde, East Kilbride, Edinburgh City, Livingston, Queen's Park, Stenhousemuir, Stranraer

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They could put Ed City in 'North' with Hearts + Hibs and shift Stirling.

However last season City were in 'South' with Stenny (and Shire) and Stirling in 'North'; but Hearts + Hibs weren't involved, tbf.

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One further thing to add - the schedule.

I think discussion of it was lost when Div had to do the big P&B reset last June - but someone (even more anorakish than me!) over on the Bert Kassies website analysed the way the groups were scheduled, and observed how it was done:

Pot 1 Seeds
Sat 16 Jul ..... (A) v unseeded
Wed 20 Jul ... free
Sat 23 Jul ..... (H) v Pot 2 Seed
Wed 27 Jul ... (A) v unseeded
Sat 30 Jul ..... (H) v unseeded

Pot 2 Seeds
Sat 16 Jul ..... (A) v unseeded
Wed 20 Jul ... (H) v unseeded
Sat 23 Jul ..... (A) v Pot 1 Seed
Wed 27 Jul ... free
Sat 30 Jul ..... (H) v unseeded


Obviously that would be of some help to the Pot 1 Seeds as they got a full week's recovery and preparation before facing the Pot 2 Seeds: and faced them at home. It'll be interesting to see if the same system is repeated. Also the two seeds both played all the weekends and got a midweek free, while the unseeded clubs each had a free weekend and played all the midweeks. Pot 1 Seeds played both home games on weekends. Among unseeded clubs - 1 had both home games on weekends; 1 had one; 1 had none.

It's worth saying that for some reason the group involving Motherwell and Rangers was not scheduled in the same way.

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9 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

One further thing to add - the schedule.

I think discussion of it was lost when Div had to do the big P&B reset last June - but someone (even more anorakish than me!) over on the Bert Kassies website analysed the way the groups were scheduled, and observed how it was done:

Pot 1 Seeds
Sat 16 Jul ..... (A) v unseeded
Wed 20 Jul ... free
Sat 23 Jul ..... (H) v Pot 2 Seed
Wed 27 Jul ... (A) v unseeded
Sat 30 Jul ..... (H) v unseeded

Pot 2 Seeds
Sat 16 Jul ..... (A) v unseeded
Wed 20 Jul ... (H) v unseeded
Sat 23 Jul ..... (A) v Pot 1 Seed
Wed 27 Jul ... free
Sat 30 Jul ..... (H) v unseeded


Obviously that would be of some help to the Pot 1 Seeds as they got a full week's recovery and preparation before facing the Pot 2 Seeds: and faced them at home. It'll be interesting to see if the same system is repeated. Also the two seeds both played all the weekends and got a midweek free, while the unseeded clubs each had a free weekend and played all the midweeks. Pot 1 Seeds played both home games on weekends. Among unseeded clubs - 1 had both home games on weekends; 1 had one; 1 had none.

It's worth saying that for some reason the group involving Motherwell and Rangers was not scheduled in the same way.

Did they not spread the Seeds V 2nd seeds based on TV coverage?

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No. All those games were played on Matchday 3 (Saturday 23rd July) with the exception of Motherwell & Rangers group.

In that group Motherwell v Rangers was on the opening day. Rangers played both their home games midweek and as a result 2 of the unseeded clubs played both theirs on weekend and the other one of theirs. Rangers were free on the last day, and Motherwell on the first midweek.

Possibly it was due to TV selections - I recall several games in this group were on TV - or maybe as Rangers were hosting Burnley in a friendly on Saturday 30th July. Nevertheless as I say all the groups adhered to the same scheduling pattern except for this group.

EDIT: These were TV selections. I can't remember off-hand which of the concluding games was selected.

Matchday 1 - Arbroath v Dundee Utd; Motherwell v Rangers
Matchday 2 - none
Matchday 3 - East Stirlingshire v Rangers, St Johnstone v Falkirk
Matchday 4 - Stranraer v Rangers
Matchday 5 - 1 game tbd

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9 hours ago, realmadrid said:

Where will Hearts play their home games? Was there a plan for the European games?

They will play there league cup games in front of 3 stands at tynecastle and they would've played their European games at murrayfield.

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On 08/05/2017 at 18:14, HibeeJibee said:

No. All those games were played on Matchday 3 (Saturday 23rd July) with the exception of Motherwell & Rangers group.

In that group Motherwell v Rangers was on the opening day. Rangers played both their home games midweek and as a result 2 of the unseeded clubs played both theirs on weekend and the other one of theirs. Rangers were free on the last day, and Motherwell on the first midweek.

Possibly it was due to TV selections - I recall several games in this group were on TV - or maybe as Rangers were hosting Burnley in a friendly on Saturday 30th July. Nevertheless as I say all the groups adhered to the same scheduling pattern except for this group.

EDIT: These were TV selections. I can't remember off-hand which of the concluding games was selected.

Matchday 1 - Arbroath v Dundee Utd; Motherwell v Rangers
Matchday 2 - none
Matchday 3 - East Stirlingshire v Rangers, St Johnstone v Falkirk
Matchday 4 - Stranraer v Rangers
Matchday 5 - 1 game tbd

Even more bizarrely our TV game was at Ibrox, not Stair Park. Simply underlined the fact that TV companies will choose to show Rangers no matter how good/slim the chances of a competitive spectacle for viewers!

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On 08/05/2017 at 18:14, HibeeJibee said:

No. All those games were played on Matchday 3 (Saturday 23rd July) with the exception of Motherwell & Rangers group.

In that group Motherwell v Rangers was on the opening day. Rangers played both their home games midweek and as a result 2 of the unseeded clubs played both theirs on weekend and the other one of theirs. Rangers were free on the last day, and Motherwell on the first midweek.

Possibly it was due to TV selections - I recall several games in this group were on TV - or maybe as Rangers were hosting Burnley in a friendly on Saturday 30th July. Nevertheless as I say all the groups adhered to the same scheduling pattern except for this group.

EDIT: These were TV selections. I can't remember off-hand which of the concluding games was selected.

Matchday 1 - Arbroath v Dundee Utd; Motherwell v Rangers
Matchday 2 - none
Matchday 3 - East Stirlingshire v Rangers, St Johnstone v Falkirk
Matchday 4 - Stranraer v Rangers
Matchday 5 - 1 game tbd

I don't think there was one. This link seems to support that argument - http://sport.bt.com/football/news/spfl-league-cup-on-bt-sport-next-season-S11364065673599

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On ‎12‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 12:08, Clayhole Blue said:

Even more bizarrely our TV game was at Ibrox, not Stair Park. Simply underlined the fact that TV companies will choose to show Rangers no matter how good/slim the chances of a competitive spectacle for viewers!

Definitely. Their deal allows them up to 6 games from the sections so this year you'd expect to see them use up those with Hearts and Hibs games and maybe Dundee Utd (notably if they draw Dundee).

With confirmation of St Johnstone in EL, only question AFAICS is whether Edinburgh City get a rum deal or whether they're swapped with Stirling as outlined.

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Dates confirmed, same as this season:

http://spfl.co.uk/key-dates/

Groupstage - Saturday 15th, Wednesday 19th, Saturday 22nd, Wednesday 26th, Saturday 29th July
Last 16 - Wednesday 9th August
Quarter-Finals - Wednesday 20th September
Semi-Finals - Saturday 21st October
Final - Sunday 26th November



As I noted in Scots in Europe sub-forum... pre-Christmas final could be tricky from 2018-19 as claims UEFA will move CL & EL QR1-QR3 back 1 week.

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On ‎14‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 12:52, South Lanarkshire Jag said:

I don't think there was one. This link seems to support that argument - http://sport.bt.com/football/news/spfl-league-cup-on-bt-sport-next-season-S11364065673599

Dundee Utd vs Dunfermline was televised. Draw for next round made at the end of the game.

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I see the Group Stage Draw is on 2nd June.

Certainly the potential for some tasty encounters. Based on HibeeJibee's pots above, these would be great groups for example:

A

Hearts

Hibs

Raith

Cowdenbeath

East Fife

B

Dundee

Dundee United

Arbroath

Forfar

Brechin

C

Inverness

Falkirk

Montrose

Elgin 

Peterhead

D

Ross County

Dunfermline

Alloa

Buckie

Stirling

E

Accies

Dumbarton

Annan

Edinburgh City

Livingston

F

Killie

QotS

Ayr

Berwick

Stranraer

G

Motherwell

St.Mirren

Airdrie

Albion

Stenhousemuir

H

Partick

Morton

Clyde

Queen's Park

EK



 

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1 hour ago, Karl Fletcher said:

Certainly the potential for some tasty encounters. Based on HibeeJibee's pots above, these would be great groups for example:

...

F

Killie

QotS

Ayr

Berwick

Stranraer

Aye, that'd be brilliant...

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10 hours ago, Karl Fletcher said:

B

Dundee

Dundee United

Arbroath

Forfar

Brechin

 

If that happened, they should just award the 2017-18 Forfarshire Cup to the group winners.

In fact, there's probably a better chance of that exact group being drawn than there is of the tournament even getting started via "conventional" means.

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I see the Group Stage Draw is on 2nd June.
Certainly the potential for some tasty encounters. Based on HibeeJibee's pots above, these would be great groups for example:
A
Hearts
Hibs
Raith
Cowdenbeath
East Fife
B
Dundee
Dundee United
Arbroath
Forfar
Brechin
C
Inverness
Falkirk
Montrose
Elgin 
Peterhead
D
Ross County
Dunfermline
Alloa
Buckie
Stirling
E
Accies
Dumbarton
Annan
Edinburgh City
Livingston
F
Killie
QotS
Ayr
Berwick
Stranraer
G
Motherwell
St.Mirren
Airdrie
Albion
Stenhousemuir
H
Partick
Morton
Clyde
Queen's Park
EK


The point of having the League Cup in July is to spend the day on the piss at a proper away day: Berwick; Annan; Stranraer etc. A set of shan derbies a handful of miles from each other is doing it wrong.

The ideal group and schedule for Morton for example would be:
Berwick (a)
Edinburgh City/assorted diddy (h)
Hearts (a)
assorted diddy (h)
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