English Nationalism

[kevthedee]

We have really seen the ugly side of English Nationalism over the last 9 months. Watching QT last night and seeing some c***s spewing about the EU, Scotland etc.... whilst pushing a 1800s colonial agenda was cringe.

This inward looking vile trait is completely opposite to the outward inclusive Scottish journey.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is that proud scottish yes voters only in that outward inclusive Scottish journey??

 

[Gordon EF]

2 minutes ago, kevthedee said:

 

 

 

 

Is that proud scottish yes voters only in that outward inclusive Scottish journey??

 

It's only folk who can outscore a jackdaw in some simple tests of logic.

Sorry pal.

[DublinMagyar]

 
 
 
 
Is that proud scottish yes voters only in that outward inclusive Scottish journey??
 

No

[pandarilla]

Does it need to happen? I feel 'Englishness' is quite a secure sense of being in a way Scottishness often doesn't seem to be. People seem to be very accepting of the idea of being British and English, for example, without any conflict between the identities arising. Sometimes that feels a bit more difficult for some people being Scottish.

I sort of feel that a discussion on Englishness isn't really required and that an English identity is quite a comfortable one. I'm not sure what England has to gain by exploring Englishness.

Gordon made the point for me basically. Englishness and britishness are one and the same for most people.

[Wee Willie]

1 minute ago, kevthedee said:

 

 

 

 

Is that proud scottish yes voters only in that outward inclusive Scottish journey??

 

Of course.
NO voters are content for Scotland to be a bit player in the UK.
Therefor they cannae be included in an 'outward inclusive Scottish journey'

Just now, pandarilla said:

 

Gordon made the point for me basically. Englishness and britishness are one and the same for most people.

 

Ditto  

[jmothecat]

Gordon made the point for me basically. Englishness and britishness are one and the same for most people.

Is that a problem? That they can know the difference but not live the difference seems like a positive thing. Not letting national identity define things in any meaningful way seems like the ideal. You may disagree but I feel that here national identity is a far more meaningful thing (on both the yes and no sides) than it is in England. There seems to be more of a desire to define one's identity in a way I didn't feel when I lived in England.

[pandarilla]

Is that a problem? That they can know the difference but not live the difference seems like a positive thing. Not letting national identity define things in any meaningful way seems like the ideal. You may disagree but I feel that here national identity is a far more meaningful thing (on both the yes and no sides) than it is in England. There seems to be more of a desire to define one's identity in a way I didn't feel when I lived in England.

Unless you suggest that we're all European. Then you get a bit of national identity rising to the surface in England. And it's not pleasant.

[jmothecat]

Unless you suggest that we're all European. Then you get a bit of national identity rising to the surface in England. And it's not pleasant.

I'm not suggesting it doesn't exist, but that it doesn't have the same far-reaching hold as it does in a lot of other countries, Scotland included.

[Gordon EF]

28 minutes ago, jmothecat said:

 

Is that a problem? That they can know the difference but not live the difference seems like a positive thing. Not letting national identity define things in any meaningful way seems like the ideal. You may disagree but I feel that here national identity is a far more meaningful thing (on both the yes and no sides) than it is in England. There seems to be more of a desire to define one's identity in a way I didn't feel when I lived in England.

The suggestion is that actually, a lot of them don't know the difference so 'living the difference' whatever that means isn''t really an option.

And just because a lot of people can't tell the difference between English and British doesn't mean whatever people choose to see their national identity as doesn't define things for them - I think the Brexit vote highlighted that pretty well.

As everyone here will and has acknowledged the Scottish/British distinction is a much bigger issue in Scotland than the English/British one is in England. That's obvious and we've all expained why. Do you think think the British/European issue is more or less of an issue in England than it is in Scotland?

Your attempt to characterise England as some kind of identity-fluid citizenry of the world compared to Scotland is laughable frankly. I'm not sure whether you actually believe it or not. If you do, I'd suggest taking one small step out of tour social / demographic bubble and taking a closer look.

[Gordon EF]

Just now, jmothecat said:

 

I'm not suggesting it doesn't exist, but that it doesn't have the same far-reaching hold as it does in a lot of other countries, Scotland included.

What's the evidence or reasoning behind that view?

[Wee Willie]

1 hour ago, pandarilla said:

 

Gordon made the point for me basically. Englishness and britishness are one and the same for most people.

 

 

1 hour ago, jmothecat said:

 

Is that a problem? That they can know the difference but not live the difference seems like a positive thing. Not letting national identity define things in any meaningful way seems like the ideal. You may disagree but I feel that here national identity is a far more meaningful thing (on both the yes and no sides) than it is in England. There seems to be more of a desire to define one's identity in a way I didn't feel when I lived in England.

 

 

39 minutes ago, jmothecat said:

 

I'm not suggesting it doesn't exist, but that it doesn't have the same far-reaching hold as it does in a lot of other countries, Scotland included.

 

of course it disnae.
Being English and British is the same thing.
By virtue of its size it has Westminster sewn up and the monarchy is totally English.
Have you ever heard of anyone mistaking Scotland for Britain or Britain for Scotland?

 

 

[Kejan]

English/British nationalism are intermingled. Basically the same thing.

[jmothecat]

The suggestion is that actually, a lot of them don't know the difference so 'living the difference' whatever that means isn''t really an option.
And just because a lot of people can't tell the difference between English and British doesn't mean whatever people choose to see their national identity as doesn't define things for them - I think the Brexit vote highlighted that pretty well.
As everyone here will and has acknowledged the Scottish/British distinction is a much bigger issue in Scotland than the English/British one is in England. That's obvious and we've all expained why. Do you think think the British/European issue is more or less of an issue in England than it is in Scotland?
Your attempt to characterise England as some kind of identity-fluid citizenry of the world compared to Scotland is laughable frankly. I'm not sure whether you actually believe it or not. If you do, I'd suggest taking one small step out of tour social / demographic bubble and taking a closer look.

I think what you identify yourself as matters more in Scotland than it does in England. I don't think anyone cares particularly whether someone in England defines themselves as English or British whilst it does in Scotland. I'm not trying to say national identity isn't relevant in England, it is, it just feels less so than it is in Scotland. I am basing this purely on my own experiences which are going to be skewed, as most of my friends are lefty/liberal/right on types, but even amongst that demographic I get the impression Scottishness matters more than Englishness does. I just struggle to see what an upturn in English nationalism or an exploration of Englishness will achieve.

If I'm wrong, and national identity is just as relevant in England as it is in Scotland is it a good thing to nurture that further or to try to create a more specific, English, nationalism rather than a British one?

The other thing I find with national identity is the cultural side of things. Again this is purely my own impressions on things which will be skewed by the person I am and friends I have, but a lot of specifically Scottish cultural things are emphasised and widely pushed across Scotland, from Ceilidh dancing to Gaelic, in a way I don't feel English culture does. I don't feel England has to have its own separate culture to define itself distinctly apart from British culture. A lot of cultural things which are English in origin are celebrated wider as part of British identity rather than specifically English. What's the benefit of exploring Englishness and creating an additional separation between what is English and what is British?

[Gordon EF]

6 hours ago, jmothecat said:

I think what you identify yourself as matters more in Scotland than it does in England. I don't think anyone cares particularly whether someone in England defines themselves as English or British whilst it does in Scotland. I'm not trying to say national identity isn't relevant in England, it is, it just feels less so than it is in Scotland. I am basing this purely on my own experiences which are going to be skewed, as most of my friends are lefty/liberal/right on types, but even amongst that demographic I get the impression Scottishness matters more than Englishness does. I just struggle to see what an upturn in English nationalism or an exploration of Englishness will achieve.

If I'm wrong, and national identity is just as relevant in England as it is in Scotland is it a good thing to nurture that further or to try to create a more specific, English, nationalism rather than a British one?

The other thing I find with national identity is the cultural side of things. Again this is purely my own impressions on things which will be skewed by the person I am and friends I have, but a lot of specifically Scottish cultural things are emphasised and widely pushed across Scotland, from Ceilidh dancing to Gaelic, in a way I don't feel English culture does. I don't feel England has to have its own separate culture to define itself distinctly apart from British culture. A lot of cultural things which are English in origin are celebrated wider as part of British identity rather than specifically English. What's the benefit of exploring Englishness and creating an additional separation between what is English and what is British?

 

I'm not saying there's any benefit of a rise in English nationalism or English people trying to explore or define what 'Englishness' is as opposed to 'Britishness'. 

We're all agreed that there's less of a distinction between English/British in England than there is between Scottish/British in Scotland. That and the reasons for it should be obvious. As the numerically dominant component of 'Britain', there simply is less distinction between English/British than there is between Scottish/British. 

I think 'Scottish identity' is more important to Scots than 'English identity' is to the English generally. But I don't think or see any evidence that some form of national identity is any less important in England than it is in Scotland, just because national identity in England is 'more British' than it is in Scotland. How many times have you heard English politicians talking about "British values"? Ever seen the last night of the Proms or a royal wedding? Did you miss the Brexit debate in England? Are we really saying national identity isn't playing a part in these things just because it's a union flag being waved rather than a St George's cross?

[NotThePars]

I'm not saying there's any benefit of a rise in English nationalism or English people trying to explore or define what 'Englishness' is as opposed to 'Britishness'. 
We're all agreed that there's less of a distinction between English/British in England than there is between Scottish/British in Scotland. That and the reasons for it should be obvious. As the numerically dominant component of 'Britain', there simply is less distinction between English/British than there is between Scottish/British. 
I think 'Scottish identity' is more important to Scots than 'English identity' is to the English generally. But I don't think or see any evidence that some form of national identity is any less important in England than it is in Scotland, just because national identity in England is 'more British' than it is in Scotland. How many times have you heard English politicians talking about "British values"? Ever seen the last night of the Proms or a royal wedding? Did you miss the Brexit debate in England? Are we really saying national identity isn't playing a part in these things just because it's a union flag being waved rather than a St George's cross?

Look at the heavy snide suspicion over Wilfred Zaha choosing to play for Côte D'Ivoire like he's betrayed this country cause he might, god forbid, prefer to play elsewhere.

[DrewDon]

I have been reading Ashcroft and Culwick's Well You Did Ask... on the result of the EU referendum. It is interesting to note how identifying strongly as 'English' rather than 'British' influenced your likelihood of supporting the UK exiting the EU, or even identifying more strongly as English than British. For example, around 80% of those identifying as 'English not British' (a fairly small group of the English electorate, in fairness: about 12%) voted 'Leave'; UKIP voters were twice as likely as the average member of the English electorate to identify as such. Those who considered themselves more British than English voted to 'Remain' by a margin of around two-to-one.