POLL - Should Junior Clubs be part of the Pyramid Structure?

[GordonS]

I'd be interested in knowing what it is people enjoy about watching the team they support.

For me, I like walking round the corner to watch my town's team. I like paying £6 and £3 for my daughter. I like not being frisked or my bag searched to see if I'm bringing a bottle of juice in with me, and that it's ok for me to bring juice in. I like paying £1.60 for a decent steak pie and £1 for a can of coke. I like standing on the halfway line, or standing anywhere that suits me depending on the weather or what way we're shooting, or sitting on the grass on a sunny evening. I like being able to walk round and talk to people I know. I like the choice of paying another £1.50 for a seat in the stand. I like that my wee boy can kick a ball around with the other kids on the grass behind one of the goals. I like that people can bring their dog. And though I don't smoke, I like that it's one of the few places left a guy can go with a cigar or a pipe. 

My team play football that's as enjoyable to watch as any team below full-time level. I get the excitement of annual Scottish Cup runs, and regular deep runs in the Junior Cup.

I was talking to a Ross County fan recently who was trying to persuade me that my team, Linlithgow Rose, could reach their level. Honestly, I'd hate that and I'd stop attending regularly. Pay £24 and £10 for my daughter to watch football that's hardly scintillating, in a league we could never possibly hope to win, being forced to sit and told where to sit, so unable to go chat to people? It's not for me.

I don't think most non-league supporters are looking for exactly the same things as supporters of big teams. Am I wrong?

[Glenconner]

Are any of the Bankies on here old enough to remember a certain chap shafting East Stirlingshire to start up Clydebank in the 1960s?

Or it that a touchy subject?

[rednblack]

I'd be interested in knowing what it is people enjoy about watching the team they support.
For me, I like walking round the corner to watch my town's team. I like paying £6 and £3 for my daughter. I like not being frisked or my bag searched to see if I'm bringing a bottle of juice in with me, and that it's ok for me to bring juice in. I like paying £1.60 for a decent steak pie and £1 for a can of coke. I like standing on the halfway line, or standing anywhere that suits me depending on the weather or what way we're shooting, or sitting on the grass on a sunny evening. I like being able to walk round and talk to people I know. I like the choice of paying another £1.50 for a seat in the stand. I like that my wee boy can kick a ball around with the other kids on the grass behind one of the goals. I like that people can bring their dog. And though I don't smoke, I like that it's one of the few places left a guy can go with a cigar or a pipe. 
My team play football that's as enjoyable to watch as any team below full-time level. I get the excitement of annual Scottish Cup runs, and regular deep runs in the Junior Cup.
I was talking to a Ross County fan recently who was trying to persuade me that my team, Linlithgow Rose, could reach their level. Honestly, I'd hate that and I'd stop attending regularly. Pay £24 and £10 for my daughter to watch football that's hardly scintillating, in a league we could never possibly hope to win, being forced to sit and told where to sit, so unable to go chat to people? It's not for me.
I don't think most non-league supporters are looking for exactly the same things as supporters of big teams. Am I wrong?

Spot on Sir.

Nothing wrong with being content in what you are and always have been.

[HTG]

5 hours ago, GordonS said:

I'd be interested in knowing what it is people enjoy about watching the team they support.

For me, I like walking round the corner to watch my town's team. I like paying £6 and £3 for my daughter. I like not being frisked or my bag searched to see if I'm bringing a bottle of juice in with me, and that it's ok for me to bring juice in. I like paying £1.60 for a decent steak pie and £1 for a can of coke. I like standing on the halfway line, or standing anywhere that suits me depending on the weather or what way we're shooting, or sitting on the grass on a sunny evening. I like being able to walk round and talk to people I know. I like the choice of paying another £1.50 for a seat in the stand. I like that my wee boy can kick a ball around with the other kids on the grass behind one of the goals. I like that people can bring their dog. And though I don't smoke, I like that it's one of the few places left a guy can go with a cigar or a pipe. 

My team play football that's as enjoyable to watch as any team below full-time level. I get the excitement of annual Scottish Cup runs, and regular deep runs in the Junior Cup.

I was talking to a Ross County fan recently who was trying to persuade me that my team, Linlithgow Rose, could reach their level. Honestly, I'd hate that and I'd stop attending regularly. Pay £24 and £10 for my daughter to watch football that's hardly scintillating, in a league we could never possibly hope to win, being forced to sit and told where to sit, so unable to go chat to people? It's not for me.

I don't think most non-league supporters are looking for exactly the same things as supporters of big teams. Am I wrong?

It's all about personal choice of course. So that feels right for you. But all the evidence suggests that a lot more people start to go than stop going once you're in a national league structure. 

I also think it's confusing to suggest that all the things you list in terms of advantages will suddenly stop - they won't. Not unless your team is spectacularly successful on the pitch.  

The pyramid is only about finding your level in a top to bottom structure with no "invented" glass ceilings or floors. 

Why would anyone have a concern about that? Ross County are not a traditional "big" club. They are an excellent example of a club which is embedded into and beyond its community (able to extend beyond immediate community on account of its geography). But there has been a fair bit of individual investment there. It's not all been grown out of raffles and race nights. 

My ambition for my team is for them to be the very best they can be. If that takes them beyond non league then that would be fantastic. Given our current league position that's a flight of fancy but we know that where we are now is not typical. 

Why should any team win its league and think it's reached a pinnacle when there are 5 or 6 leagues still to go through within its own association's structure. 

[Glenconner]

2 hours ago, kilbowie2002 said:

Not touchy in the slightest, the Steedman's were weasels and ES were rightly returned to Falkirk with Clydebank joining the league in 1967 I believe. I'm not old enough to remember that, 19 years before I was born mind you.

I believe ultimately the best way for Scottish football is to adopt the English pyramid system or similar where Clubs/Fans like the Rose guy posting just above don't have to accept promotion and have their fans pay £24 if they don't want that for the club. That way everyone wins and clubs are restricted only by their own ambition/finances.

Fair play, it was slightly earlier along with a record gate of 14500 v Hibs. Obviously the pyramid idea or the present feeble attempts at one have came from pressure outside Scotland via UEFA. Doubt the Bankies or any other Senior club gave an eff about pyramids till it starts to touch on them. A true pyramid system would see even some of the present SPL clubs in danger with a few bad seasons.

The real big unanswered question of Scottish Football is how the eff did a works team called Ferranti Thistle also known as Meadowbank also known Livingston manage to get into the Seniors.

[hague]

Would just like to point out that the steedmans were east Stirlingshire directors and moved their club to take over Clydebank juniors something neither set of fans were happy about.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, GordonS said:

I'd be interested in knowing what it is people enjoy about watching the team they support.

For me, I like walking round the corner to watch my town's team. I like paying £6 and £3 for my daughter. I like not being frisked or my bag searched to see if I'm bringing a bottle of juice in with me, and that it's ok for me to bring juice in. I like paying £1.60 for a decent steak pie and £1 for a can of coke. I like standing on the halfway line, or standing anywhere that suits me depending on the weather or what way we're shooting, or sitting on the grass on a sunny evening. I like being able to walk round and talk to people I know. I like the choice of paying another £1.50 for a seat in the stand. I like that my wee boy can kick a ball around with the other kids on the grass behind one of the goals. I like that people can bring their dog. And though I don't smoke, I like that it's one of the few places left a guy can go with a cigar or a pipe. 

My team play football that's as enjoyable to watch as any team below full-time level. I get the excitement of annual Scottish Cup runs, and regular deep runs in the Junior Cup.

I was talking to a Ross County fan recently who was trying to persuade me that my team, Linlithgow Rose, could reach their level. Honestly, I'd hate that and I'd stop attending regularly. Pay £24 and £10 for my daughter to watch football that's hardly scintillating, in a league we could never possibly hope to win, being forced to sit and told where to sit, so unable to go chat to people? It's not for me.

I don't think most non-league supporters are looking for exactly the same things as supporters of big teams. Am I wrong?

What an absolute stoater of a post, sums it up beautifully. 

 

I don't live in my home town now, loads of Talbot fans live out the area now, but it gives me the chance to go back to the town on a regular basis and stand with guys who I have stood with for well over 30 years. Spoke to one young Talbot fan who also likes Killie, he described what a recent game versus Hamilton was like, it sounded dreadful. Tiny crowd in a big stadium, all penned into one wee area, not able to move except to the food stall, a rip off, or the toilet. Paid over £20 to watch a dreadful game. A far cry from Beechwood of a Saturday.

 

As I have said, if some non league clubs want this and are capable of promotion, go on fill yer boots, but as a very wise man once said, be careful for what you wish! 

[Glenconner]

Bit concerned about charging kids under 16 for a run of the mill Junior league game.

Eff sake, how do you expect the youngsters to pay for Alco Pops and a bit of weed on a Saturday night.

[Glenconner]

Pollok have been known to do a bit of frisking.

[WaffenThinMint]

1 hour ago, hague said:

Would just like to point out that the steedmans were east Stirlingshire directors and moved their club to take over Clydebank juniors something neither set of fans were happy about.

I'm sorry, but that is simply revisionism. The Clydebank committee were delighted as they felt they'd outgrown the set up as it was they were in and were more than delighted with the prospect of the Steedmans (who were something of the darlings of Scottish football at that time) with their largesse coming on board. It was all from the Shire came the fight against the merger & the court case to annul the illegal merger that the SFA & SFL sanctioned.

Clydebank only became unhappy when they found themselves out on their arses - resulting in a year in the limbo of the old intermediaries league while threatening the SFL of a court case of their own if they were not allowed back in - note well, they could easily have reapplied for their old Juniors spot, but did not.

[WaffenThinMint]

9 minutes ago, kilbowie2002 said:

Oh you'll have been party to the thoughts of Clydebank fans back then will you?

It was in the newspapers of the period - available for public view at the Mitchell Library free of charge.

Better luck next time. 

[GordonS]

7 hours ago, HTG said:

It's all about personal choice of course. So that feels right for you. But all the evidence suggests that a lot more people start to go than stop going once you're in a national league structure. 

I also think it's confusing to suggest that all the things you list in terms of advantages will suddenly stop - they won't. Not unless your team is spectacularly successful on the pitch.  

The pyramid is only about finding your level in a top to bottom structure with no "invented" glass ceilings or floors. 

Why would anyone have a concern about that? Ross County are not a traditional "big" club. They are an excellent example of a club which is embedded into and beyond its community (able to extend beyond immediate community on account of its geography). But there has been a fair bit of individual investment there. It's not all been grown out of raffles and race nights. 

My ambition for my team is for them to be the very best they can be. If that takes them beyond non league then that would be fantastic. Given our current league position that's a flight of fancy but we know that where we are now is not typical. 

Why should any team win its league and think it's reached a pinnacle when there are 5 or 6 leagues still to go through within its own association's structure. 

It would be inevitable that prices go up as a club goes up the pyramid. For instance, Rose and Forfar looked pretty even when they played last season, and it's exactly double the price to watch Forfar than Linlithgow Rose. When you're on a low income the additional £9 for an adult and child has an impact. If we didn't charge the same we wouldn't be able to compete.

I might be wrong, but I think some of the things I'm talking about would automatically be lost if we played in a league under the SFA - like bringing bottles of juice into the ground, being able to buy a can of juice, being able to go out and back in at half time. They're little things but it they are part of feeling welcome and respected at Junior matches. At SPL or bigger Championship matches I always feel like the clubs and authorities just see fans as a problem to be managed.

That said, I'm happy to see a pyramid, I've always thought it was nuts that Rose weren't playing local clubs like Spartans. But I'd really want it to be OK for a club to turn down the opportunity to step up to the next level if they didn't want to. In practice I think everyone would climb to the highest they could, so I'd worry some clubs could lose what makes them special. You're probably right that attendances would go up, but it wouldn't be the same people plus some new fans - some of the existing fans would go less often or stop altogether.

Maybe it's also different for me because I'm a newcomer - I was brought up to support Celtic and only started watching Rose when I moved here 17 years ago. Now I'm only a Rose fan and I haven't watched Celtic in 10 years. So the charms of Junior football are maybe different for me than for a died-in-the-wool fan. 

As for Rose this season, right from the start it was obviously going to be a write-off, lets hope we don't suffer too much damage before it's over and some serious rebuilding can be done in the summer.  

[cowdenbeath]

7 minutes ago, GordonS said:

It would be inevitable that prices go up as a club goes up the pyramid. For instance, Rose and Forfar looked pretty even when they played last season, and it's exactly double the price to watch Forfar than Linlithgow Rose. When you're on a low income the additional £9 for an adult and child has an impact. If we didn't charge the same we wouldn't be able to compete.

I might be wrong, but I think some of the things I'm talking about would automatically be lost if we played in a league under the SFA - like bringing bottles of juice into the ground, being able to buy a can of juice, being able to go out and back in at half time. They're little things but it they are part of feeling welcome and respected at Junior matches. At SPL or bigger Championship matches I always feel like the clubs and authorities just see fans as a problem to be managed.

That said, I'm happy to see a pyramid, I've always thought it was nuts that Rose weren't playing local clubs like Spartans. But I'd really want it to be OK for a club to turn down the opportunity to step up to the next level if they didn't want to. In practice I think everyone would climb to the highest they could, so I'd worry some clubs could lose what makes them special. You're probably right that attendances would go up, but it wouldn't be the same people plus some new fans - some of the existing fans would go less often or stop altogether.

Maybe it's also different for me because I'm a newcomer - I was brought up to support Celtic and only started watching Rose when I moved here 17 years ago. Now I'm only a Rose fan and I haven't watched Celtic in 10 years. So the charms of Junior football are maybe different for me than for a died-in-the-wool fan. 

As for Rose this season, right from the start it was obviously going to be a write-off, lets hope we don't suffer too much damage before it's over and some serious rebuilding can be done in the summer.  

Lowland League prices are more or less the same as the top flight juniors give or take a quid. Edinburgh City have increased their prices in line with the other League 2 sides since their promotion but have a league season ticket for £120 I think so the price for regulars hasn't went up as much as it could have.

Re bottles of juice your right your not allowed them in SPFL grounds (silly I know as you can buy them at league grounds in England without the tops!).

The bottom 2 divisions arn't too bad re stewarding moving about grounds its more of a problem in the top 2. A lot of the wee sides are much the same in friendliness as the non leagues.

[HTG]

I would like to have the chance to follow the Rose right through the leagues and into European competition. I'd deal with some of the inconvenience that will crop up along the way and I'll get over never actually getting there at all but I see no reason why that dream should be stifled by a decision to lock my team out to ensure that they're juniors and nothing more or less. 

[JakeSAFC]

I was talking to a Ross County fan recently who was trying to persuade me that my team, Linlithgow Rose, could reach their level. Honestly, I'd hate that and I'd stop attending regularly. Pay £24 and £10 for my daughter to watch football that's hardly scintillating, in a league we could never possibly hope to win, being forced to sit and told where to sit, so unable to go chat to people? It's not for me.
I don't think most non-league supporters are looking for exactly the same things as supporters of big teams. Am I wrong?

You'd hate for your club to become a top flight club, winning the occasional big trophy?

Please tell me this is a joke.

[ex-german exile]

I'd be interested in knowing what it is people enjoy about watching the team they support.
For me, I like walking round the corner to watch my town's team. I like paying £6 and £3 for my daughter. I like not being frisked or my bag searched to see if I'm bringing a bottle of juice in with me, and that it's ok for me to bring juice in. I like paying £1.60 for a decent steak pie and £1 for a can of coke. I like standing on the halfway line, or standing anywhere that suits me depending on the weather or what way we're shooting, or sitting on the grass on a sunny evening. I like being able to walk round and talk to people I know. I like the choice of paying another £1.50 for a seat in the stand. I like that my wee boy can kick a ball around with the other kids on the grass behind one of the goals. I like that people can bring their dog. And though I don't smoke, I like that it's one of the few places left a guy can go with a cigar or a pipe. 
My team play football that's as enjoyable to watch as any team below full-time level. I get the excitement of annual Scottish Cup runs, and regular deep runs in the Junior Cup.
I was talking to a Ross County fan recently who was trying to persuade me that my team, Linlithgow Rose, could reach their level. Honestly, I'd hate that and I'd stop attending regularly. Pay £24 and £10 for my daughter to watch football that's hardly scintillating, in a league we could never possibly hope to win, being forced to sit and told where to sit, so unable to go chat to people? It's not for me.
I don't think most non-league supporters are looking for exactly the same things as supporters of big teams. Am I wrong?

Great post. I like watching the juniors. If my team aren't playing I usually go to another junior game. If I wanted to watch the lower senior leagues I would, but I've no interest. If junior clubs want to go senior then fine, go senior, but leave the rest of us where we want to be.

[kilsyth ranger]

I'm the same , if we've no game al watch the pace or the roy or cumbernauld , or even camelon off a midweek, ive no interest in the seniors at all .

[WaffenThinMint]

1 hour ago, kilbowie2002 said:

What the newspapers of the time had the views of all the Clydebank fans? Yes I'm sure they did.

Was there any protest group formed the same way Shire supporters formed one to oppose the hostile merger? Nope. Why should they - they were getting the good end of the deal - into the big kids league & all of the Shire's assets to sell.

As recorded by Bob Crampsey and all other reputable football historians, Clydebank FC - from committee to fans - largely went along with killing another club for their league place without caring a damn. Hence why decades later some older fans held the regrettable opinion that Clydebank suffering the same fate at the hands of Airdrie was karma coming back to bite.

So accept once more your wrongness, & be wrong. 

[garrellburn]

The Steedman brothers played for Kilsyth during season 1952-53. they were regarded as "hard men" in an era when there was no shortage of them, maybe that says something about their subsequent careers. No idea where they went when they left Kilsyth.

[GordonS]

2 hours ago, JakeSAFC said:

 

You'd hate for your club to become a top flight club, winning the occasional big trophy?

Please tell me this is a joke.

 

I'd love my team to become top flight and win the occasional big trophy - as long as it doesn't cost much more and the ground doesn't become less safe or enjoyable for my kids. It'd also be nice to be in a league that we have more than a theoretical possibility of ever winning.

I was a Celtic fan until my late 20s, I saw them win leagues and cups, I saw then in the UEFA Cup final, I saw them beat Barcelona, Juventus, Milan, Liverpool, Man Utd, Lyon. But I had to spend too much time being herded like livestock, in the company of too many scumbags, and it took far, far too much of my money. The last straw was when they were charging £26 for a child's ticket for a European game. A child's ticket. If those had been the prices when I was growing up I could never have afforded to go in the first place. My mum couldn't have paid that. It's a disgrace and I don't want any part of it.

Premier league football is for people with a fair disposable income. Dads on low wages or benefits spending a large slice of their family income on football need to have a think about their priorities in life. If that's what people want then fine, each to their own. But lots and lots of people don't, and non-league football suits them nicely.

If it ever cost as much to watch Linltihgow Rose as it does to watch Ross County, and the experience is as bad, then I'll find something else to do with my Saturdays. I already watch a fair amount of rugby, I'd probably go see the Reds more. No joke.