POLL - Should Junior Clubs be part of the Pyramid Structure?

[mrman2011]

Why do Junior clubs want Isolation. It's a big world and a decent sized Scotland. Junior clubs should be banned from the Scottish Cup until they show evidence of wanting to join the Pyramid

[Hillonearth]

11 hours ago, Isabel Goudie said:

Try and keep up please, we don't have a pyramid, that is the point! 

Well we do, but it's completely dysfunctional at the lower end which is the main problem.

Up north, I'll grant there isn't one - it's a closed shop, end of story.

Further south in the feeder leagues below it, you've got two teams desperate to go LL and who would be fine additions,  probably mounting a challenge to a lot of the established sides - LTHV and Leith - but who will probably be denied entry through licensing issues should they win the EoS, a setup that is on its last legs - a couple more sides from it apparently looking to go Junior?

Meanwhile, in the SoS you've got licensed Wigtown frantically attempting to throw the league to avoid the financial ruin that promotion to the LL would entail, thus allowing Edusport (last attendance 4) to step up to the LL in their place.

East KIlbride will probably make the step up this season and good luck to them. Next season's LL will almost certainly be a two-horse race between East Stirling and whoever goes down this year - I doubt any of the various village teams, universities and boys' club sides which will now make up the rump of the LL will be able to challenge them.

A three region setup better mirroring the demographics of the country would be a starting point, but as it stands there seems little prospect of that.

 

[Shanner]

52 minutes ago, mrman2011 said:

Why do Junior clubs want Isolation. It's a big world and a decent sized Scotland. Junior clubs should be banned from the Scottish Cup until they show evidence of wanting to join the Pyramid

I'm not sure they want isolation as such, it's just that the conditions under which a lot of them are prepared to join a bigger set up are unlikely to be accommodated. 

A few think the LL is a joke league full of "kid on" teams - the teams are the teams so that's not going to change.

Others, particularly in Ayrshire as far as I can tell, don't fancy the expense of extra travelling - again that's something that won't be changed to suit them although I think calls for West, East and North Regions are quite reasonable. 

And, then others just don't want to stop winning things.  

 

[newcastle broon]

2 hours ago, Hillonearth said:

 

East KIlbride will probably make the step up this season and good luck to them. Next season's LL will almost certainly be a two-horse race between East Stirling and whoever goes down this year - I doubt any of the various village teams, universities and boys' club sides which will now make up the rump of the LL will be able to challenge them.

A three region setup better mirroring the demographics of the country would be a starting point, but as it stands there seems little prospect of that.

 

Scottish fitba this season 

Celtic one horse race 

Hibs one horse race 

Livingston one horse race 

Forfar/Arbroath two horse race. 

Yer accusing the LL of a two horse race. 

It's no different from any other league even Kelty with Maybes Bonnyrigg with a late challenge  a one/two  horse race. 

East Kilbride were a team the juniors laughed at now its "good luck to them" probably not just from yourself but many looking in. 

I agree with your last point

 

[rednblack]

Scottish fitba this season 
Celtic one horse race 
Hibs one horse race 
Livingston one horse race 
Forfar/Arbroath two horse race. 
Yer accusing the LL of a two horse race. 
It's no different from any other league even Kelty with Maybes Bonnyrigg with a late challenge  a one/two  horse race. 
East Kilbride were a team the juniors laughed at now its "good luck to them" probably not just from yourself but many looking in. 
I agree with your last point [emoji4]
 

Have you clocked the west premier four teams separated by two points seven games to go just saying like.

[Hillonearth]

26 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

Scottish fitba this season 

Celtic one horse race 

Hibs one horse race 

Livingston one horse race 

Forfar/Arbroath two horse race. 

Yer accusing the LL of a two horse race. 

It's no different from any other league even Kelty with Maybes Bonnyrigg with a late challenge  a one/two  horse race. 

East Kilbride were a team the juniors laughed at now its "good luck to them" probably not just from yourself but many looking in. 

I agree with your last point

 

Looking at it from a West-centric view, nothing's been decided at this late stage apart from the bottom tier - any one of 4 could still win the West Premier, any one of 4 could still win the West First, any one of 3 could still win the Ayrshire District and any one of 3 could still win the Central First...that's quite healthy by anyone's standards.

Regarding EK, I reckon it was more their accession to the LL that people found amusing, after joining the SoS and jumping ship without actually playing a game there. It was more the fact it was obvious the LL was looking for somebody - anybody! - from the west to join to mask the fact it was effectively the EoS rebranding itself at the time.

However, although they came from apparently nowhere, they play in the fifth biggest town in Scotland, and while it's firmly a dormitory town for Glasgow with people tending to move there with allegiances already in place, there was probably always going to be sufficient long-term potential to sustain a club at LL/low SPFL level if they played their cards right. I live not far from there and have caught quite a few games over there since their inception - while they were really struggling for crowds at first until the Celtic game put them on the map, it's been clear since that they should be fine.

[newcastle broon]

4 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

Looking at it from a West-centric view, nothing's been decided at this late stage apart from the bottom tier - any one of 4 could still win the West Premier, any one of 4 could still win the West First, any one of 3 could still win the Ayrshire District and any one of 3 could still win the Central First...that's quite healthy by anyone's standards.

Regarding EK, I reckon it was more their accession to the LL that people found amusing after joining the SoS and jumping ship without actually playing a game there. It was more the fact it was obvious the LL was looking for somebody - anybody! - from the west to join to mask the fact it was effectively the EoS rebranding itself at the time.

However, although they came from apparently nowhere, they play in the fifth biggest town in Scotland, and while it's firmly a dormitory town for Glasgow with people tending to move there with allegiances already in place, there was probably always going to be sufficient long-term potential to sustain a club at LL/low SPFL level if they played their cards right. I live not far from there and have caught quite a few games there over there since their inception - while they were really struggling for crowds at first until the Celtic game put them on the map, it's been clear since that they should be fine.

It's a thread that's going round in circles as predicted on page 1with the same views for and against. 

Maybes Bo'ness and Kelty might change a few thoughts. 

 

[Hillonearth]

4 hours ago, newcastle broon said:

It's a thread that's going round in circles as predicted on page 1with the same views for and against. 

Maybes Bo'ness and Kelty might change a few thoughts. 

 

I know - it seems like we've been re-enacting the same circular borefest for the last three or four years now.

Regardless of whether a couple of sides from the East sign up though as now appears possible going by recent stories, over this end of the M8 the pyramid as it stands is still generally seen as not fit for purpose at best and an irrelevance at worst, all the more so if EK gain league status, leaving who exactly to represent by far the most populous part of the country - BSC playing out of Alloa or potentially Edusport playing out of God knows where?

And let's not forget the Highland League, who seem to have got what they wanted out of the deal and pulled up the drawbridge.

[stanley]

3 hours ago, Hillonearth said:

Well we do, but it's completely dysfunctional at the lower end which is the main problem.

Up north, I'll grant there isn't one - it's a closed shop, end of story.

Further south in the feeder leagues below it, you've got two teams desperate to go LL and who would be fine additions,  probably mounting a challenge to a lot of the established sides - LTHV and Leith - but who will probably be denied entry through licensing issues should they win the EoS, a setup that is on its last legs - a couple more sides from it apparently looking to go Junior?

Meanwhile, in the SoS you've got licensed Wigtown frantically attempting to throw the league to avoid the financial ruin that promotion to the LL would entail, thus allowing Edusport (last attendance 4) to step up to the LL in their place.

East KIlbride will probably make the step up this season and good luck to them. Next season's LL will almost certainly be a two-horse race between East Stirling and whoever goes down this year - I doubt any of the various village teams, universities and boys' club sides which will now make up the rump of the LL will be able to challenge them.

A three region setup better mirroring the demographics of the country would be a starting point, but as it stands there seems little prospect of that.

 

Might be a two-horse race in the LL next year (assuming the League Two club loses the playoff) but Spartans might challenge.  They've been pretty consistent.  1st, 5th, 2nd and now 3rd place.  East Stirlingshire are only nine points ahead of Spartans after 29 matches so it's not as if they're miles ahead.

[Hillonearth]

16 minutes ago, stanley said:

Might be a two-horse race in the LL next year (assuming the League Two club loses the playoff) but Spartans might challenge.  They've been pretty consistent.  1st, 5th, 2nd and now 3rd place.  East Stirlingshire are only nine points ahead of Spartans after 29 matches so it's not as if they're miles ahead.

Entirely possible they'll be there or thereabouts - they certainly look the most likely to be able to of the existing sides.

It's actually been surprising that they've not been in the mix more since the first season of the LL, which someone I know over that side of the country maintained should have been named "Operation: Get Spartans into the League...!"

[stanley]

7 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

Entirely possible they'll be there or thereabouts - they certainly look the most likely to be able to of the existing sides.

It's actually been surprising that they've not been in the mix more since the first season of the LL, which someone I know over that side of the country maintained should have been named "Operation: Get Spartans into the League...!"

I think Spartans were the victims of bad timing.  They won the East of Scotland League in 2002, 2004, 2005, 2009, 2010 and 2011 and the Lowland League in 2014.  Playoffs for promotion were then introduced in 2015.  Will be harder now with more league clubs potentially dropping down to the league over the next few years.

[The Mantis]

Things change all the time though. I remember debating with Isa 4 years ago, the last time WW won the league when he cricised the EOSL for being 'banal and boring'. Even though there were 3 teams in it right to the last game. Meanwhile Talbot had a 22 match league sewn up with games to spare.

However I agree completely about the west being under-represented compared to the population. For a long time I've blamed Regan for coming up here into a job and rushing into changes without taking time to realise how much the Juniors are part of the culture.

[Talbot Bing]

EK used you be juniors?

[andy25]

Different teams . East Kilbride Thistle still going .

[Glenconner]

59 minutes ago, Talbot Bing said:

EK used you be juniors?

Borders on sacrilege to equate East Kilbride Thistle with those chancers.

You are now being watched by the League of Junior Fundimentalists.

[Afrojim]

This debate is becoming somewhat tiresome... 

The SFA national club licensing programme determines the minimum requirements necessary in order for Scottish football clubs to be considered a benefit to their players, supporters, local community, the wider Scottish footballing community and a benefit to Scottish football as a whole. The criterion assessed includes Ground, First Team Football, Youth Team Football, Legal, Admin, Finance, Commercial and Codes of Practice. Clubs which become involved in the licensing programme commit to the continuous improvement of the aforementioned criterion. Surely it should be the ambition of all Scottish non-league clubs to meet these requirements and commit to continuous improvement? Whether they be senior, junior, amateur or welfare clubs?

I feel that the superior attitude shown by Junior clubs and their supporters is actually borne out of the reality that these clubs are currently inferior. Not all, but most Junior clubs are playing in ramshackle grounds from a bygone era. Additionally, how many of these Junior clubs would currently meet the Legal, Admin, Finance, Commercial and Codes of Practice criteria? Not many I would suggest. Junior clubs and their supporters have to portray themselves as superior in order to cover up their own lack of ambition. They constantly harp on about how much better they are than the senior non-league clubs based purely on two criterion - they have more fans and better first team squads. But if that's all that Junior league clubs have to offer then how does that make them better? In my opinion it does not.

If junior clubs are far better then prove it. Get a license, join the pyramid system and beat the teams that are currently playing in it. I have massive respect for Bo'ness United and Kelty Hearts for breaking ranks and openly describing the Junior set-up as something which is holding them back from progress and creating an unnecessary glass ceiling. Bo'ness manager Allan McGonigal is quoted as saying that "staying in the juniors is not an option for us" believing that the junior ranks is having a negative effect on the club and the community. 

The disparaging remarks about the pyramid system and nonsensical excuses about not participating in it don't really convince me or many other people. "The Lowland League is full of village teams" is one such oft heard remark. There is only one village team in the Lowland League, Whitehill Welfare, based in Rosewell. All the other clubs are from Cities or Towns. However, the SJFA West Region has been dominated in recent years by Auchinleck Talbot, a club that actually are from a village, Hurlford is also a village, so the West Region Super League actually has more village teams than the Lowland League. As does the East Region Super League (Kelty, Hill of Beath, Camelon and Newtongrange are all villages). Other disparaging remarks revolve around clubs ground sharing but Rossvale share with Petershill, Kirkintilloch share with Cumbernauld and Clydebank share with Yoker so does the criticism of ground sharing only apply to senior clubs? Do junior clubs get a free pass on this issue as well? And as for the excuse of clubs in the West not having a senior league to play in should they defect from the juniors, the last time I checked all the clubs currently participating in the South of Scotland League are based in the west of Scotland. Or does the SFA have to create a new pyramid structure specifically for the benefit of junior clubs in order for these clubs to show a modicum of ambition?  It's the Junior clubs in the North I feel sorry for even if they do get a license it seems the Highland League will just refuse them entry anyway. 

East Kilbride have been described as imposters, chancers, usurpers etc. "That club was only founded a few years ago" people exclaim "they have no history or tradition". Yet despite this lack of history and tradition they've built their own wee ground, announced plans for a potential new stadium and are on the verge of promotion to the SPFL - In just 7 years they've shown more ambition to improve than most junior clubs have put together. 

Fans of Junior clubs shouldn't be criticising the pyramid system, the SFA or the Senior non-league clubs. They should be criticising the committees that run their own clubs and asking them why they are refusing to commit to a programme which insists that their club is a benefit to players, fans, the community and Scottish football. They should be asking why their clubs aren't willing to commit to the notion of continuous improvement in regards to all aspects of the club. Having a first team squad of decent players and higher average attendances shouldn't be enough for you or your club.

[Burnie_man]

2 hours ago, Afrojim said:

This debate is becoming somewhat tiresome... 

The SFA national club licensing programme determines the minimum requirements necessary in order for Scottish football clubs to be considered a benefit to their players, supporters, local community, the wider Scottish footballing community and a benefit to Scottish football as a whole. The criterion assessed includes Ground, First Team Football, Youth Team Football, Legal, Admin, Finance, Commercial and Codes of Practice. Clubs which become involved in the licensing programme commit to the continuous improvement of the aforementioned criterion. Surely it should be the ambition of all Scottish non-league clubs to meet these requirements and commit to continuous improvement? Whether they be senior, junior, amateur or welfare clubs?

I feel that the superior attitude shown by Junior clubs and their supporters is actually borne out of the reality that these clubs are currently inferior. Not all, but most Junior clubs are playing in ramshackle grounds from a bygone era. Additionally, how many of these Junior clubs would currently meet the Legal, Admin, Finance, Commercial and Codes of Practice criteria? Not many I would suggest. Junior clubs and their supporters have to portray themselves as superior in order to cover up their own lack of ambition. They constantly harp on about how much better they are than the senior non-league clubs based purely on two criterion - they have more fans and better first team squads. But if that's all that Junior league clubs have to offer then how does that make them better? In my opinion it does not.

If junior clubs are far better then prove it. Get a license, join the pyramid system and beat the teams that are currently playing in it. I have massive respect for Bo'ness United and Kelty Hearts for breaking ranks and openly describing the Junior set-up as something which is holding them back from progress and creating an unnecessary glass ceiling. Bo'ness manager Allan McGonigal is quoted as saying that "staying in the juniors is not an option for us" believing that the junior ranks is having a negative effect on the club and the community. 

The disparaging remarks about the pyramid system and nonsensical excuses about not participating in it don't really convince me or many other people. "The Lowland League is full of village teams" is one such oft heard remark. There is only one village team in the Lowland League, Whitehill Welfare, based in Rosewell. All the other clubs are from Cities or Towns. However, the SJFA West Region has been dominated in recent years by Auchinleck Talbot, a club that actually are from a village, Hurlford is also a village, so the West Region Super League actually has more village teams than the Lowland League. As does the East Region Super League (Kelty, Hill of Beath, Camelon and Newtongrange are all villages). Other disparaging remarks revolve around clubs ground sharing but Rossvale share with Petershill, Kirkintilloch share with Cumbernauld and Clydebank share with Yoker so does the criticism of ground sharing only apply to senior clubs? Do junior clubs get a free pass on this issue as well? And as for the excuse of clubs in the West not having a senior league to play in should they defect from the juniors, the last time I checked all the clubs currently participating in the South of Scotland League are based in the west of Scotland. Or does the SFA have to create a new pyramid structure specifically for the benefit of junior clubs in order for these clubs to show a modicum of ambition?  It's the Junior clubs in the North I feel sorry for even if they do get a license it seems the Highland League will just refuse them entry anyway. 

East Kilbride have been described as imposters, chancers, usurpers etc. "That club was only founded a few years ago" people exclaim "they have no history or tradition". Yet despite this lack of history and tradition they've built their own wee ground, announced plans for a potential new stadium and are on the verge of promotion to the SPFL - In just 7 years they've shown more ambition to improve than most junior clubs have put together. 

Fans of Junior clubs shouldn't be criticising the pyramid system, the SFA or the Senior non-league clubs. They should be criticising the committees that run their own clubs and asking them why they are refusing to commit to a programme which insists that their club is a benefit to players, fans, the community and Scottish football. They should be asking why their clubs aren't willing to commit to the notion of continuous improvement in regards to all aspects of the club. Having a first team squad of decent players and higher average attendances shouldn't be enough for you or your club.

You set-up a straw man argument in order to have a bash at Junior clubs, you are tarring all Junior clubs and fans with the same broad brush.  If you had been paying attention, there is strong support for a Pyramid and continuous improvement (just look at the poll results at the start of this thread). You also seem to be making stuff up to support your rant, that is the tiresome bit.

You may have a point in there somewhere, but it's lost in amongst your generalisations and refusal to acknowledge that Junior football does not collectively think or act as the one group, as Kelty and Bo'ness (and others) have demonstrated.

Some contribution for someone with only three posts...........

 

 

 

[Hillonearth]

3 hours ago, Afrojim said:

This debate is becoming somewhat tiresome... 

We know - congratulations for ramping the tiresomeness up a notch though.

3 hours ago, Afrojim said:

The SFA national club licensing programme determines the minimum requirements necessary in order for Scottish football clubs to be considered a benefit to their players, supporters, local community, the wider Scottish footballing community and a benefit to Scottish football as a whole. The criterion assessed includes Ground, First Team Football, Youth Team Football, Legal, Admin, Finance, Commercial and Codes of Practice. Clubs which become involved in the licensing programme commit to the continuous improvement of the aforementioned criterion. Surely it should be the ambition of all Scottish non-league clubs to meet these requirements and commit to continuous improvement? Whether they be senior, junior, amateur or welfare clubs?

Ah,. "continuous improvement"...the clarion call of every out of their depth middle manager I've ever met. You'll actually find that most junior clubs engage with their local communities in a fashion far removed from the box-ticking exercise you're advocating.

3 hours ago, Afrojim said:

The disparaging remarks about the pyramid system and nonsensical excuses about not participating in it don't really convince me or many other people. "The Lowland League is full of village teams" is one such oft heard remark. There is only one village team in the Lowland League, Whitehill Welfare, based in Rosewell. All the other clubs are from Cities or Towns.

Splitting hairs on terminology - while the likes of Innerleithen, Gretna or Dalbeattie might sensu stricto be towns rather than villages, it doesn't make them any bigger.

3 hours ago, Afrojim said:

Other disparaging remarks revolve around clubs ground sharing but Rossvale share with Petershill, Kirkintilloch share with Cumbernauld and Clydebank share with Yoker so does the criticism of ground sharing only apply to senior clubs?

Two of the three examples you've quoted are temporary expedients - Rossvale are moving into their new ground next season and KRR are awaiting a new ground being built. Slight difference from sides joining the pyramid with no intentions of doing anything other than piggybacking onto existing facilities.

3 hours ago, Afrojim said:

And as for the excuse of clubs in the West not having a senior league to play in should they defect from the juniors, the last time I checked all the clubs currently participating in the South of Scotland League are based in the west of Scotland. Or does the SFA have to create a new pyramid structure specifically for the benefit of junior clubs in order for these clubs to show a modicum of ambition? 

Well, yeah...if they actually want there to be any degree of interest. Have you bothered looking at a map of  the SoS? Although nominally in the West of Scotland, the teams are clustered around Dumfries and the Galloway coast. Even Edusport moved from Hamilton to Annan to minimise the travel for "visiting" sides. It's clear that the SoS - bar the aforementioned Edusport - are ambivalent about the current setup too, with St Cuthbert's tactically delaying their licensing last year to avoid joining the LL and Wigtown doing their level best not to win the league at the moment.

4 hours ago, Afrojim said:

 They have more fans and better first team squads. But if that's all that Junior league clubs have to offer then how does that make them better? In my opinion it does not.

Are you advocating a meritocracy based on who does their paperwork the neatest? 

4 hours ago, Afrojim said:

Fans of Junior clubs shouldn't be criticising the pyramid system, the SFA or the Senior non-league clubs. They should be criticising the committees that run their own clubs and asking them why they are refusing to commit to a programme which insists that their club is a benefit to players, fans, the community and Scottish football. They should be asking why their clubs aren't willing to commit to the notion of continuous improvement in regards to all aspects of the club. Having a first team squad of decent players and higher average attendances shouldn't be enough for you or your club.

It's only a small minority that are anti-pyramid per se. Most of the criticism I've seen is of the half-arsed and rushed nature of its introduction which has been the root cause of the current dysfunctional situation. Sure, you can lay a lot of the blame at the door of the SJFA for reluctance to engage initially, but I fail to see how you can directly assign blame to the committees of junior clubs, as ultimately they're only the custodians of their club and have the best interests of it at heart...if they feel the pyramid as it stands is unworkable, that's their shout. 

[eamonn]

if you want pyramid system to to Cairo ! you may even come back with a better idea maybe a Spinx system ! ha ha