Scottish Lib Dem Conference

[DrewDon]

This, from Alistair Carmichael, is just so, so dense. It carries the additional drawback of reading like it was penned in the quarter of an hour immediately preceding delivery. 



1) Comparisons between Salmond (why not Sturgeon?) and Trump/Farage are asinine and intellectually incoherent. They are also, by and large, politically and electorally impotent. 

2) Unconditionally opposing a second independence referendum will not magically fix 'divisions' in Scotland. If anything, there is an increasingly compelling case for proposing that failing to hold another referendum could further exacerbate divisions in the near future - political, economic, social, or otherwise - especially post-Brexit. Moreover, if you oppose a second independence referendum on Carmichael's grounds, you must then be equally against a second EU referendum for that position not to be rendered totally inconsistent and utterly lacking in credibility. 

3) Here is Tim Farron, Carmichael's leader at Westminster, promoting and defining 'British values': http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/05/lib-dem-leadership-bid-tim-farron-defends-british-values-decency-respect-tolerance. Does Carmichael believe that Farron is supporting the idea that nobody other than Brits can hold those values, or that you are not quite British enough if you reject them? Does this make Tim Farron a nationalist to Alistair Carmichael? 

4) "Dress it up anyway you like but nationalism is still nationalism." I am never entirely sure what this means, but the implication is historically and politically ignorant. It is also entirely possible for a No/Remain voter to be very much more of a 'nationalist' than a Yes supporter, for example. His analysis is devoid of nuance. 

[vikingTON]

4) "Dress it up anyway you like but nationalism is still nationalism." I am never entirely sure what this means, but the implication is historically and politically ignorant. It is also entirely possible for a No/Remain voter to be very much more of a 'nationalist' than a Yes supporter, for example. His analysis is devoid of nuance. 

 

It's why Norway and, say, Serbia are understood by all credible observers to hold a shared level of sophistication in civil society and comparable foreign policy stances. Both nasty, nationalist states y'see.

 

 

 

[Antlion]

1 hour ago, DrewDon said:

4) "Dress it up anyway you like but nationalism is still nationalism." I am never entirely sure what this means, but the implication is historically and politically ignorant. It is also entirely possible for a No/Remain voter to be very much more of a 'nationalist' than a Yes supporter, for example. His analysis is devoid of nuance. 

It's not even ignorance, to be honest. Simple ignorance might be defensible. It's a cynical attempt to mislead people by effacing his and his party's hypocritical stance. He's a UK nationalist, as is his leader, but he tries to squeal "nationalism is bad" in the hopes that we just won't notice.

Spoiler

He's also a nasty fat f**k.

 

[Mr Heliums]

It was bothering me all night why Carmichael was targeting Salmond, not Sturgeon. He couldn't be THAT out of touch, could he? Possible of course, but then the more obvious reason struck me:

He can't attack Sturgeon, because he's scared that doing so would attract attention to his previous smear. How pathetic is that?

[The Chlamydia Kid]

 
It's why Norway and, say, Serbia are understood by all credible observers to hold a shared level of sophistication in civil society and comparable foreign policy stances. Both nasty, nationalist states y'see.
 
 
 

Serbia is absolutely vilified for its nationalism and always has been. Terrible example.

[Fide]

51 minutes ago, The Chlamydia Kid said:

Serbia is absolutely vilified for its nationalism and always has been. Terrible example.

Says the man with the Union Jack as his profile pic.

Yoons just don't see the irony.

[Antlion]

1 hour ago, Mr Heliums said:

It was bothering me all night why Carmichael was targeting Salmond, not Sturgeon. He couldn't be THAT out of touch, could he? Possible of course, but then the more obvious reason struck me:

He can't attack Sturgeon, because he's scared that doing so would attract attention to his previous smear. How pathetic is that?

A possibility. Another is that the halfwit just reread part of one of his 2014 speeches, given he's back in "save the UK, but pay no attention to that British nationalism behind the curtain" mode. I think yours is more likely though.

[vikingTON]

Serbia is absolutely vilified for its nationalism and always has been. Terrible example.

And Norway isn't. Both are however nation-states maintained by nationalist ideology.

That was the point, chump.

[Wee Willie]

14 hours ago, DrewDon said:

This, from Alistair Carmichael, is just so, so dense. It carries the additional drawback of reading like it was penned in the quarter of an hour immediately preceding delivery. 

Alex Salmond will tell you that all he wants is for decisions about Scotland to be made in Scotland.
 

Can any unionists on here (ye ken who ye are) explain tae me why they consider that sentence is bad?

[sophia]

3 hours ago, The Chlamydia Kid said:

Serbia is absolutely vilified for its nationalism and always has been. Terrible example.

How embarrassing

[The Chlamydia Kid]

How embarrassing

What is?

[Fide]

4 minutes ago, The Chlamydia Kid said:

What is?

You, m9. YOU'RE embarrasing.

[DublinMagyar]

Serbia is absolutely vilified for its nationalism and always has been. Terrible example.

Oh dear.

[williemillersmoustache]

M-I-C, K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E , mickey mouse, MICKEY MOUSE, mickey mouse MICKEY MOUSE

[NotThePars]

Spectacular whoosh.

Also it's easy for folk like Carmichael to denounce and simplify nationalism when his own preferred nationalism is the norm. Dickhead.

[The Chlamydia Kid]

Spectacular whoosh.

Also it's easy for folk like Carmichael to denounce and simplify nationalism when his own preferred nationalism is the norm. Dickhead.

Just re- read his post. Obviously paid a lack of attention.

[The Chlamydia Kid]

How embarrassing

I wish all I ever had ever done to be embarrassed was misreading an internet post....

[Ad Lib]

I'd call them a desperate shower but they've probably not paid their water bill.

There is a perfectly coherent case against liberal forms of nationalism that cosmopolitans can make. That coherent case is not made when you suggest that an independence movement which:

1. Is led by people who favour pooling sovereignty at a continental level

2. Defines the conditions in which someone can participate in the political process more permissively than the parent state (by allowing EU citizens to vote)

3. Proposes a more inclusive definition of citizenship eligibility than its parent state has

4. Even sought to pool monetary sovereignty with the UK last time around

Is somehow more similar to Farage, Trump or Le Pen than they are to British cosmopolitans.

The fundamental fact of Scottish politics is that two nationalisms exist, and both of them have liberal, cultural, political and ethnic adherents. The existence of Scottish nationalism is not what "divides" our families and our communities and it's not the holding of a referendum that's going to make that division more entrenched. It's the underlying reality that this is an issue on which people profoundly disagree and with respect to which the consequences of picking the wrong answer is potentially catastrophic.

"No second referendum in any circumstances" is itself a position that is designed to, and which has the effect of, dividing Scotland. The Unionist parties are not interested in understanding why almost half of the Scottish electorate disagrees with them. This behaviour is mirrored in parts of the SNP and Yes movement, but in the months after the Brexit vote it has been far less so.

These parties don't want to unite Scotland; they want to unite unionist Scotland. And that's the Ulsterisation of Scottish politics in a nutshell. Knowing that there is an alternative to embracing this constitutionalisation of politics, with their own fucking sister party actually doing just as well if not better as a non-aligned cross-community entity across the Irish sea, you'd think the Liberal Democrats in Scotland would be alert to this difficulty.

But no. They're just delusional idiots who will do nothing to stop Brexit and who by trying to deny the Scottish people the right to reassess where they should prioritise cooperation manage to piss off even those who would otherwise go along with about 90% of their policy platform.

Hell mend them.

And no, I wasn't at this conference, because I'm not a member of the Lib Dems any more and haven't been for several months now. I can say with considerable confidence that I won't be joining another political party any time soon, partly for professional reasons. Not being tied to one is very liberating.

[Glenconner]

23 hours ago, ChrisMFCfan1886 said:

I shall be attending tomorrow, looking forward to my first party conference

Do the LibDems still owe the Polis money for the SECC gig a few years back?

[Chapelhall chap]

29 minutes ago, Ad Lib said:

I'd call them a desperate shower but they've probably not paid their water bill.

There is a perfectly coherent case against liberal forms of nationalism that cosmopolitans can make. That coherent case is not made when you suggest that an independence movement which:

1. Is led by people who favour pooling sovereignty at a continental level

2. Defines the conditions in which someone can participate in the political process more permissively than the parent state (by allowing EU citizens to vote)

3. Proposes a more inclusive definition of citizenship eligibility than its parent state has

4. Even sought to pool monetary sovereignty with the UK last time around

Is somehow more similar to Farage, Trump or Le Pen than they are to British cosmopolitans.

The fundamental fact of Scottish politics is that two nationalisms exist, and both of them have liberal, cultural, political and ethnic adherents. The existence of Scottish nationalism is not what "divides" our families and our communities and it's not the holding of a referendum that's going to make that division more entrenched. It's the underlying reality that this is an issue on which people profoundly disagree and with respect to which the consequences of picking the wrong answer is potentially catastrophic.

"No second referendum in any circumstances" is itself a position that is designed to, and which has the effect of, dividing Scotland. The Unionist parties are not interested in understanding why almost half of the Scottish electorate disagrees with them. This behaviour is mirrored in parts of the SNP and Yes movement, but in the months after the Brexit vote it has been far less so.

These parties don't want to unite Scotland; they want to unite unionist Scotland. And that's the Ulsterisation of Scottish politics in a nutshell. Knowing that there is an alternative to embracing this constitutionalisation of politics, with their own fucking sister party actually doing just as well if not better as a non-aligned cross-community entity across the Irish sea, you'd think the Liberal Democrats in Scotland would be alert to this difficulty.

But no. They're just delusional idiots who will do nothing to stop Brexit and who by trying to deny the Scottish people the right to reassess where they should prioritise cooperation manage to piss off even those who would otherwise go along with about 90% of their policy platform.

Hell mend them.

And no, I wasn't at this conference, because I'm not a member of the Lib Dems any more and haven't been for several months now. I can say with considerable confidence that I won't be joining another political party any time soon, partly for professional reasons. Not being tied to one is very liberating.

In the 19th Century history I was taught a University, Nationalism and Liberalism were the cousins who took on the forces of Conservatism. He served in a Coalition government to facilitate Conservatism and his party paid the price for it in 2015. Had he been shown as a clear liar during his local campaign he might well have also paid that price.Clearly Carmichael( a well know leaker of lies) only thinks it is the 20th century corruption of National Socialism as bad nationalism in his brain. I agree with Ad Lib on the above.