What can Scottish football learn from Scottish rugby

[The Algebraist]

Given how miserable our football team has performed recently I've been enjoying the rugby as some welcome relief. Today saw us rise to our highest ever world ranking of 5th - http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/39106346. We boast a young team brimming with confidence, including one of the world's great talents in Stuart Hogg and it's less stressful than watching Sir Murray (hero of mine though he is). If England were coming to Murrayfield this year I would be predicting we would win the six nations, as it is I'm not so sure, but there is loads to shout about

However it was not so long ago that I considered Scottish rugby completely unwatchable, you know, like the football team. That got me thinking about what football could learn from their rugby counterparts. Below I set out where I think rugby is going right and football is going wrong. 

Management -  The average tenure of the rugby team's national manager is over three years, this gives managers time to impose themselves on the team. There is also excellent continuity between managers, with the new appointee often made well before his predecessor has departed and plenty of dialogue before the change. Conversely we change football managers far too much and there seems to be no grand plan, or a new one every year or two.

Selection - The Scottish rugby team have been a work in progress for a while. We've kept a few ageing heads but largely played the youth and stuck with them through mistakes, wooden spoons, the lot. Not all have made it but those that have are now really firing. Note - Rugby has certain advantages in this respect because you don't need to qualify for tournaments in anything like the same way, however does that really matter? Surely if the team is good enough? Eg Wales. Although it doesn't apply to every ageing player are some old legs that have to go from the Scotland football setup in my view, they aren't good enough and they won't be good enough, so what's the point?

Philosophy  - It is easy to see how the Scottish rugby team plays, our pack is not heavy enough to be competitive so we give quick ball to hand and use pace to punch holes in the oppos line. I have no clue how the current Scotland team is trying to play, in the early days of Strachan we were playing a lot of passes in tight areas and seemed to be evolving into a decent ball playing team, but that is fading away. I think we need to pick a strength and stick to it, we have two lightening wingers now for example.

Desire - Everyone in the current rugby team, wherever they were born, really, really wants to be there. I can't really fault the current football team on this. I have played in a lot of teams (albeit only at a decent amateur level and at a different sport) and when it isn't going well you really feel it. Turning out for Scotland regularly must be pretty soul destroying. However I would have two suggestions for any manager, never beg someone back (if they come to you that's fine), and play the guys who really, really want to be there. Often they are young and hungry, so refreshing to hear Oliver Burke recently go on and on about how he really wants to play for Scotland.

What are other's views? Load of pish? Anything else we can learn from rugby or other sports?  

 

 

[placidcasual]

Egg chasing is utter shite, and I'm pretty sure the Scottish National egg-chasing team have been embarrassingly bad for the last ten years apart from the last two months, no?

[The Algebraist]

Well that's kind of the point, although we did come within 5 minutes of a world cup semi-final in 2015. 

[lubo_blaha]

Our rugby team has been improving gradually over the last few years without getting the results. There were times where we were getting beat by Italy and gubbed by the rest whereas the last few years we've had a lot of narrow defeats and pulling off the odd good result. This year it's all clicked for us. There are probably parallels with the Welsh football team (minus having a Bale figure in the team).

What can we learn from that? f**k knows tbh.

[Booker-T]

1 hour ago, The Algebraist said:

Given how miserable our football team has performed recently I've been enjoying the rugby as some welcome relief. Today saw us rise to our highest ever world ranking of 5th - http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/39106346. We boast a young team brimming with confidence, including one of the world's great talents in Stuart Hogg and it's less stressful than watching Sir Murray (hero of mine though he is). If England were coming to Murrayfield this year I would be predicting we would win the six nations, as it is I'm not so sure, but there is loads to shout about

However it was not so long ago that I considered Scottish Rugby completely unwatchable, you know, like the football team. That got me thinking about what football could learn from their rugby counterparts. Below I set out where I think rugby is going right and football is going wrong. 

Management -  The average tenure of the Rugby team's national manager is over three years, this gives managers time to impose themselves on the team. There is also excellent continuity between managers, with the new appointee often made well before his predecessor has departed and plenty of dialogue before the change. Conversely we change football managers far too much and there seems to be no grand plan, or a new one every year or two.

Selection - The Scottish Rugby team have been a work in progress for a while. We've kept a few ageing heads but largely played the youth and stuck with them through mistakes, wooden spoons, the lot. Not all have made it but those that have are now really firing. Note - Rugby has certain advantages in this respect because you don't need to qualify for tournaments in anything like the same way, however does that really matter? Surely if the team is good enough? Eg Wales. Although it doesn't apply to every ageing player are some old legs that have to go from the Scotland football setup in my view, they aren't good enough and they won't be good enough, so what's the point?

Philosophy  - It is easy to see how the Scottish Rugby team plays, our pack is not heavy enough to be competitive so we give quick ball to hand and use pace to punch holes in the oppos line. I have no clue how the current Scotland team is trying to play, in the early days of Strachan we were playing a lot of passes in tight areas and seemed to be evolving into a decent ball playing team, but that is fading away. I think we need to pick a strength and stick to it, we have two lightening wingers now for example.

Desire - Everyone in the current rugby team, wherever they were born, really, really wants to be there. I can't really fault the current football team on this. I have played in a lot of teams (albeit only at a decent amateur level and at a different sport) and when it isn't going well you really feel it. Turning out for Scotland regularly must be pretty soul destroying. However I would have two suggestions for any manager, never beg someone back (if they come to you that's fine), and play the guys who really, really want to be there. Often they are young and hungry, so refreshing to hear Oliver Burke recently go on and on about how he really wants to play for Scotland.

What are other's views? Load of pish? Anything else we can learn from rugby or other sports?  

 

 

biggest lesson for me is... Our setup is built around possession, passing and movement at a time when conditions suit that approach (rule changes/clarifications/reduction is physicality/fields less "soft" etc). So we need to learn to look into the future and evolve our players to the conditions they will play in...

2nd lesson, be lucky.... Hogg and Laidlaw equivalents in football... Iniesta and Suarez ?

 

 

[The Algebraist]

1 hour ago, Booker-T said:

biggest lesson for me is... Our setup is built around possession, passing and movement at a time when conditions suit that approach (rule changes/clarifications/reduction is physicality/fields less "soft" etc). So we need to learn to look into the future and evolve our players to the conditions they will play in...

2nd lesson, be lucky.... Hogg and Laidlaw equivalents in football... Iniesta and Suarez ?

 

 

Completely agree with your first point, I think someone needs to decide how they want the Scotland team to play in the years to come, start putting that philosophy in place now and reward players who go for it. 

Re. your second point. You're right luck comes into it (Although I think Laidlaw is more Jordan Henderson than Iniesta) but you have to give yourself a chance to be lucky. Playing 30+ year old coldplay singers won't do it.

[killiefan27]

2 hours ago, placidcasual said:

Egg chasing is utter shite, and I'm pretty sure the Scottish National egg-chasing team have been embarrassingly bad for the last ten years apart from the last two months, no?

This.

You should be ashamed, OP, I just greenied an A*r fan.

[The_Kincardine]

3 hours ago, placidcasual said:

Egg chasing is utter shite, and I'm pretty sure the Scottish National egg-chasing team have been embarrassingly bad for the last ten years apart from the last two months, no?

You remind me of the of 'horticulture' joke.  Still, you're in the majority of dullards on here.

[placidcasual]

Behave yourself, drunken old ***.

[8MileBU]

Given how miserable our football team has performed recently I've been enjoying the rugby as some welcome relief. Today saw us rise to our highest ever world ranking of 5th - http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/39106346. We boast a young team brimming with confidence, including one of the world's great talents in Stuart Hogg and it's less stressful than watching Sir Murray (hero of mine though he is). If England were coming to Murrayfield this year I would be predicting we would win the six nations, as it is I'm not so sure, but there is loads to shout about
However it was not so long ago that I considered Scottish rugby completely unwatchable, you know, like the football team. That got me thinking about what football could learn from their rugby counterparts. Below I set out where I think rugby is going right and football is going wrong. 
Management -  The average tenure of the rugby team's national manager is over three years, this gives managers time to impose themselves on the team. There is also excellent continuity between managers, with the new appointee often made well before his predecessor has departed and plenty of dialogue before the change. Conversely we change football managers far too much and there seems to be no grand plan, or a new one every year or two.
Selection - The Scottish rugby team have been a work in progress for a while. We've kept a few ageing heads but largely played the youth and stuck with them through mistakes, wooden spoons, the lot. Not all have made it but those that have are now really firing. Note - Rugby has certain advantages in this respect because you don't need to qualify for tournaments in anything like the same way, however does that really matter? Surely if the team is good enough? Eg Wales. Although it doesn't apply to every ageing player are some old legs that have to go from the Scotland football setup in my view, they aren't good enough and they won't be good enough, so what's the point?
Philosophy  - It is easy to see how the Scottish rugby team plays, our pack is not heavy enough to be competitive so we give quick ball to hand and use pace to punch holes in the oppos line. I have no clue how the current Scotland team is trying to play, in the early days of Strachan we were playing a lot of passes in tight areas and seemed to be evolving into a decent ball playing team, but that is fading away. I think we need to pick a strength and stick to it, we have two lightening wingers now for example.
Desire - Everyone in the current rugby team, wherever they were born, really, really wants to be there. I can't really fault the current football team on this. I have played in a lot of teams (albeit only at a decent amateur level and at a different sport) and when it isn't going well you really feel it. Turning out for Scotland regularly must be pretty soul destroying. However I would have two suggestions for any manager, never beg someone back (if they come to you that's fine), and play the guys who really, really want to be there. Often they are young and hungry, so refreshing to hear Oliver Burke recently go on and on about how he really wants to play for Scotland.
What are other's views? Load of pish? Anything else we can learn from rugby or other sports?

Rugby's utter shite mate. And now that Scotland are doing well, there's a whole new batch of insufferable "Oh but I've always been into rugby!" crawling out the woodwork.

[The_Kincardine]

8 minutes ago, 8MileBU said:

Rugby's utter shite mate. 

 

f**k off, young Miley.  Rugby's a terrific sport for we larger blokes or for those with a foot like a threepenny bit.

[Dindeleux]

I went to a positive coaching event at Hampden at which Gregor Townsend, a boy from the SRU and Chris McCart from Celtic youth development spoke.

All came across very well and it's no surprise to me that all 3 clubs/organisations are currently doing well.

[come on shire]

I'm a rugby man through and through with just a limited football interest and there is some excellent points there Algebraist. Scotland doesn't have the biggest population and rugby is the 2nd sport so when professionalism took off it would always take us longer to get used to. We're heading in the right direction and shaping up to be an excellent side but it's required patience and work just like you mention in your points. Hopefully it's not just a one-off era but copies into future generations of teams too.

Ignoring the odd daft reply on here (probably 'all sport is guff apart from soccer' types) there is one big thing that rugby can learn from footy.

I'm not much of a footy fan (thank goodness for that) but I totally agree with their policy of stopping the club game when the internationals raise their head.

However, for what it's worth we need to take a step back with footy and see where we're at. The game in Scotland is turgid so why is our national footy team and fans playing the fish that aspires to be a whale? We expect far too much. It starts with the grassroots and work from there. The last team outside Celtic/Rangers to qualify for the Europa League was Aberdeen back in 2007. Sort that then work the way up. Going to Wembley a few months ago and running around like headless chickens in pink obviously wasn't the result you wanted but it's where you're at in comparison to a far better team. See it as a learning curve.

As a passionate Scotland rugby fan, I've been to Murrayfield umpteen times but I've only been to Scotland footy games 3 times. I don't have much emotional attachment with the footy team however I'm planning on the game vs Slovenia for a wee night out. I'd prefer Scotland to win but ultimately if it's a good game between 2 teams at (I think) a similar level then that's a good night out for me.

The moral of this I guess is fixing this starts from the very bottom but appreciate your sport for what it is in the meantime and enjoy what's good about it. Both the rugby and footy teams have went through tough times but it's going right back to the foundations and building afresh just like the rugby team. However, both sports can learn from each other potentially. Not just a one-way street.

[The Algebraist]

9 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

f**k off, young Miley.  Rugby's a terrific sport for we larger blokes or for those with a foot like a threepenny bit.

Too right, I mean look at these fatties amiright lads?

This one can barely move!

Sometimes I think this is why Scottish football can't have nice things, we have a successful international programme running on a fraction of the reasource less than 45 miles from Hampden but we don't actually want to learn.

[PrestersKTID]

Sometimes i think you can see the desire is there for footballers but on occasion players look uninterested and don't give 100%. Every player in the team should sing the national anthem, half of them just stand there. Whether you like the anthem or not, every single rugby player barring the odd 1 sings it. Despite half of them being South african/new zealander/ English by birth or parentage. Denis Law said in an interview that the greatest honour you have as a player is to play for your country. Nothing else is better. This is a guy who won the european cup and ballon d'or but his greatest achievement was playing for Scotland. That's what we need to instill into youth players.

You had Josh Strauss for the rugby team 2 weeks ago, absolutely running on empty, every time finding the energy to make a tackle or gain a few yards. Guy has kidney damage as a result. You don't see the Scotland football players absolutely burst after a game anymore. Not often anyway. 

The management and selection parts are harder to replicate in Football. Scotland in rugby are always around top 10 in world rankings, almost guaranteed to be in every world cup, gives a bit of leeway for managers to build teams. Because we are average at best in football atm, a run of bad results could be terrible for rankings and then seedings for tournament qualifying.

For selection all the best Scottish youth players go through Glasgow and Edinburgh but the difference to football is they get played. If the best football youngsters go to Celtic, how many get Loaned out or forgotten? How many go to championship clubs and disappear or don't develop.

 

 

[The Algebraist]

5 minutes ago, PrestersKTID said:

The management and selection parts are harder to replicate in Football. Scotland in rugby are always around top 10 in world rankings, almost guaranteed to be in every world cup, gives a bit of leeway for managers to build teams. Because we are average at best in football atm, a run of bad results could be terrible for rankings and then seedings for tournament qualifying.

I actually think the seedings are a bit of a red herring. The group will have one harder challenge than you would have faced anyway. If you seriously mean to make a major tournament you have to back yourself to beat a second tier European team. Not sure how it works come the playoffs, that could  be where it makes a difference.

[Bully Wee Villa]

I'm happy that the Scottish rugby team are having some (long-awaited) success, but comparing it with football is mental. There are only five decent teams in Europe and about eight or nine Worldwide.

 

Not saying that Scotland's football team haven't been disappointing in recent years, but they don't deserve further castigation because our rugby players look capable of finishing in the top two or three in a competition with five decent teams, for once.

 

 

[The Algebraist]

2 minutes ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

I'm happy that the Scottish football team are having some (long-awaited) success, but comparing it with football is mental. There are only five decent teams in Europe and about eight or nine Worldwide.

Not saying that Scotland's football team haven't been disappointing in recent years, but they don't deserve further castigation because our rugby players look capable of finishing in the top two or three in a competition with five decent teams, for once.

It isn't the players fault. I am not expecting us to become top five in the world (although Wales seem to have given it a damn good go), what I do expect is for us to manage our limited resources to give us the best possible chance of success in the future. The SRFU has done that, albeit on a far smaller scale, the SFA seems incapable of it.

[knee jerk reaction]

Scotland have a good rugby team at the moment, one able to compete with the other nations. however it is not comparable with football, if rugby goes like football with virtually every country in the world having a large amount of players and a professional set up then Scotland will slide way down the rankings like it has done in football. I read an excellent book on why rugby type sports went from more popular than football to the position where football was the working man's game and it was a real eye opener. there was a real effort by the upper classes to keep the scum working class away from the game, it's why rugby stayed amateur and so much more violent than football, pre welfare state if you broke 2 ribs and a leg and couldn't work then poorer players were stuggling to feed their families, slightly different if daddy was the earl of Norfolk or somewhere! unfortunately the origins of rugby are largely overlooked now so you have loads of working class families trotting off to murryfield waving their wee saltires at a game that deliberately tried to exclude their "type" from the sport.

[The Algebraist]

7 minutes ago, knee jerk reaction said:

Scotland have a good rugby team at the moment, one able to compete with the other nations. however it is not comparable with football, if rugby goes like football with virtually every country in the world having a large amount of players and a professional set up then Scotland will slide way down the rankings like it has done in football. I read an excellent book on why rugby type sports went from more popular than football to the position where football was the working man's game and it was a real eye opener. there was a real effort by the upper classes to keep the scum working class away from the game, it's why rugby stayed amateur and so much more violent than football, pre welfare state if you broke 2 ribs and a leg and couldn't work then poorer players were stuggling to feed their families, slightly different if daddy was the earl of Norfolk or somewhere! unfortunately the origins of rugby are largely overlooked now so you have loads of working class families trotting off to murryfield waving their wee saltires at a game that deliberately tried to exclude their "type" from the sport.

I gave up rugby at university because I wasn't part of the private school cliques (ended up playing a lot of hockey instead) so do understand where you're coming from. However what reason, apart from bitterness, is there for people to stop enjoying something now just because people were dicks in the past? Why not just go and have a good time in a friendly atmosphere? No segregation, no sectarianism, no chants about wife beating (one I hear four times a season watching my own team), a better family day out than a lot of football grounds.

Edit: I should add that if this is the case football should be taking a look at itself and wondering where their clientele is going, it's not rugby's fault that watching it is fun.