Not populist not xenophobes they are racist

[dardo]

See if he blocked them ages ago- how does he know what they still post?
Or care if others do? Blocks them but then still reads their drivel....clown.

I think it's possibly because other posters are quoting them and then he's reading the quotes.

If you read his post, that's exactly what he's complaining about.

[LongTimeLurker]

14 hours ago, pawpar said:

Its about time we called out racists like Trump, Farage, Nuttall and  people that vote UKIP are. They are racist. Stop using their alternative fact language. They are racist. The reason the UK and the USA are in the mess now is because of these simpletons. From now on I make a pledge anybody on any thread that quotes either MuckSpreader or Deplorable I will red dot them. Stop replying to these racist morons.  I am all for political debate but these two  are at it. Stop replying to them. I blocked them ages ago do not give them the oxygen of publicity.    IGNORE. 

How you can see that as "alternative fact language" is beyond me. Calling someone a xenophobe is pretty much the same as calling them a racist and in modern times populist is definitely not seen as a positive term, because it is seldom used as a self-description in much the same way that Donald Trump doesn't describe himself as a "Know Nothing" even though his policies have some similarities to the Nativist movement that was quite popular in American politics in the mid-19th century. Beyond that I would argue that the self-righteous elitist PC approach that you are advocating here is a big part of what has led to a disconnect between the traditional parties of the centre left and their working class support base, which has led us into the world of Hard Brexit and Trump. From the era of Tony Blair and Bill Clinton onwards the left became obsessed with PC culture wars and climate change, because they largely abandoned Keynesian style social democratic politics and their links to trade unions and still needed something to distinguish themselves from the centre right after adopting much of their neo-liberal economic agenda.

[NotThePars]

Tony Blair and Bill Clinton those formidable dogmatic and ideologically sound left wing leaders. Take a back seat, Marxists. The Blairites have your backs.

[McSpreader]

8 hours ago, The Chlamydia Kid said:

See if he blocked them ages ago- how does he know what they still post?

Or care if others do? Blocks them but then still reads their drivel....clown.

Drivel?........how dare you?

You mean my carefully thought , analytical, incisive opinions AND observations, surely!

[McSpreader]

6 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

How you can see that as "alternative fact language" is beyond me. Calling someone a xenophobe is pretty much the same as calling them a racist and in modern times populist is definitely not seen as a positive term, because it is seldom used as a self-description in much the same way that Donald Trump doesn't describe himself as a "Know Nothing" even though his policies have some similarities to the Nativist movement that was quite popular in American politics in the mid-19th century. Beyond that I would argue that the self-righteous elitist PC approach that you are advocating here is a big part of what has led to a disconnect between the traditional parties of the centre left and their working class support base, which has led us into the world of Hard Brexit and Trump. From the era of Tony Blair and Bill Clinton onwards the left became obsessed with PC culture wars and climate change, because they largely abandoned Keynesian style social democratic politics and their links to trade unions and still needed something to distinguish themselves from the centre right after adopting much of their neo-liberal economic agenda.

^^^ I can relate to that !

[DrewDon]

I, for one, agree that calling out blatant racism and xenophobia for what it is, is actually self-righteous elitist political correctness gone mad.

[Deplorable]

It would be hard to paint me as a xenophobe. I've met several Canadians that I liked. Once a German, too.

[Deplorable]

Also, Paul was clearly the most talented and hottest Beatle.

[LongTimeLurker]

16 hours ago, DrewDon said:

I, for one, agree that calling out blatant racism and xenophobia for what it is, is actually self-righteous elitist political correctness gone mad.

Maybe you should read the first post again, because what was being advocated was ignoring people rather than calling them out. If people had taken Farage and UKIP a bit more seriously and had taken the time to forcefully make a positive case for the EU over the last 20 years we wouldn't be staring down the barrel of Hard Brexit at the moment. Treating them as fringe nutter pariahs to never be engaged directly didn't work.

[Wee Willie]

3 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Maybe you should read the first post again, because what was being advocated was ignoring people rather than calling them out. If people had taken Farage and UKIP a bit more seriously and had taken the time to forcefully make a positive case for the EU over the last 20 years we wouldn't be staring down the barrel of Hard Brexit at the moment. Treating them as fringe nutter pariahs to never be engaged directly didn't work.

good point 

[DrewDon]

3 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Maybe you should read the first post again, because what was being advocated was ignoring people rather than calling them out. If people had taken Farage and UKIP a bit more seriously and had taken the time to forcefully make a positive case for the EU over the last 20 years we wouldn't be staring down the barrel of Hard Brexit at the moment. Treating them as fringe nutter pariahs to never be engaged directly didn't work.

It is not something even remotely worthy of extensive argument, but the first line of the first post literally advocates, for better or for worse, calling out racism and xenophobia - including from Farage and UKIP - rather than ignoring it: 'It's about time we called out racists like Trump, Farage, Nuttall and [the] people that vote UKIP are.' He later advocates, rightly or wrongly, ignoring certain posters' contributions on this anonymous sub-forum. I do not have a particularly strong opinion either way on that, but I believe that it does take a very big jump on your part to describe such an innocuous suggestion as a "self-righteous elitist PC approach". Each to their own, mind. 

I wholeheartedly agree with you that too many mainstream politicians have utterly failed to make a positive, long-term case for British membership of the European Union over the previous couple of decades, and we are now reaping the rewards of their failure and political cowardice. I would certainly contest that Farage and UKIP have been treated exclusively as "fringe nutter pariahs" over the past decade or so, though. You know, the immigration policies and rhetoric of both Labour and the Conservatives over the same period of time has never exactly suggested to me that they were guilty of not taking Farage and UKIP seriously enough, or not engaging with their politics. Quite the opposite, really. Labour selling a mug with 'CONTROLS ON IMMIGRATION' plastered over it does not suggest to me that UKIP - or the politics they espouse - were not being taken seriously enough. Rather, it suggests that they were acutely aware of their potential and influence, but totally at sea on how to manage it. There are other examples that I could call upon, but I don't particularly desire to get bogged down in that. 

But there is one thing, perhaps more than any other, that is responsible for where we are with Brexit in 2017: a complete and total failure from the political class in this country to make a positive and coherent case for immigration. Why? Because they were utterly terrified of being accused, in your words, of taking a "self-righteous, elitist, PC approach". Straight from the UKIP playbook, that.  As a result of this, both Labour and the Conservatives, although with some honourable exceptions, have been utterly unwilling to make constructive, consistent and rational arguments in favour of immigration since around the beginning of this century, and this tendency has only intensified over time. It was more convenient to take the easy way out. To more or less just go along with Farage/UKIP/the Daily Mail front page being correct. Played right into their hands, really. Make the principled, economically sound, rational case for immigration? No. Much better just to say that they have "legitimate concerns" and move on. Preferable to being labelled a self-righteous, elitist, PC gone mad, England hater, I suppose. When you consider all this, it should not really be a surprise to anybody that we have ended up where we are now. 

[DublinMagyar]

You mean racists concerns

[DI Bruce Robertson]

It is not something even remotely worthy of extensive argument, but the first line of the first post literally advocates, for better or for worse, calling out racism and xenophobia - including from Farage and UKIP - rather than ignoring it: 'It's about time we called out racists like Trump, Farage, Nuttall and [the] people that vote UKIP are.' He later advocates, rightly or wrongly, ignoring certain posters' contributions on this anonymous sub-forum. I do not have a particularly strong opinion either way on that, but I believe that it does take a very big jump on your part to describe such an innocuous suggestion as a "self-righteous elitist PC approach". Each to their own, mind. 

I wholeheartedly agree with you that too many mainstream politicians have utterly failed to make a positive, long-term case for British membership of the European Union over the previous couple of decades, and we are now reaping the rewards of their failure and political cowardice. I would certainly contest that Farage and UKIP have been treated exclusively as "fringe nutter pariahs" over the past decade or so, though. You know, the immigration policies and rhetoric of both Labour and the Conservatives over the same period of time has never exactly suggested to me that they were guilty of not taking Farage and UKIP seriously enough, or not engaging with their politics. Quite the opposite, really. Labour selling a mug with 'CONTROLS ON IMMIGRATION' plastered over it does not suggest to me that UKIP - or the politics they espouse - were not being taken seriously enough. Rather, it suggests that they were acutely aware of their potential and influence, but totally at sea on how to manage it. There are other examples that I could call upon, but I don't particularly desire to get bogged down in that. 

But there is one thing, perhaps more than any other, that is responsible for where we are with Brexit in 2017: a complete and total failure from the political class in this country to make a positive and coherent case for immigration. Why? Because they were utterly terrified of being accused, in your words, of taking a "self-righteous, elitist, PC approach". Straight from the UKIP playbook, that.  As a result of this, both Labour and the Conservatives, although with some honourable exceptions, have been utterly unwilling to make constructive, consistent and rational arguments in favour of immigration since around the beginning of this century, and this tendency has only intensified over time. It was more convenient to take the easy way out. To more or less just go along with Farage/UKIP/the Daily Mail front page being correct. Played right into their hands, really. Make the principled, economically sound, rational case for immigration? No. Much better just to say that they have "legitimate concerns" and move on. Preferable to being labelled a self-righteous, elitist, PC gone mad, England hater, I suppose. When you consider all this, it should not really be a surprise to anybody that we have ended up where we are now. 

Very well reasoned and coherent post. Unfortunately, the first response was from TBK.

[DI Bruce Robertson]

Utter rubbish. Anyone that mentioned concerns over immigration or doubts over multiculturalism were derided as racist bigots for years. It's only with the emergence of UKIP in the last few years that politicians started to sit up and listen to people's concerns.

Anyone that continues to raise concerns over immigration is neither enlightened or forward thinking, they are racist, xenophobes. Put that in your Shisha pipe & smoke it. All indicators suggest that multicultirism is positive- and before you start, for every example of negativity, there are 10 examples of the opposite.

[NotThePars]

Aye UKIP have certainly been treated like fringe nutter pariahs I must've been hallucinating the weekly slots on Question Time and Farage's season ticket on Daily Politics and the BBC in general.

[Deplorable]

The problem is that there isn't a good and reasoned argument for mass immigration, especially if it's low-skilled and you are not allowed to differentiate between cultures that are more or less compatible with your own. That's why we hear so much yelling about "racism" and "bigotry" when people oppose mass immigration. They don't have the positive case to make. It's most likely a net negative for most people in the West all things considered.

 

[NotThePars]

That's what happens when you reduce human beings to economic counters and spend over a century destabilising all your southern neighbours but that's none of my business.

[The Chlamydia Kid]

You mean racists concerns

Bore aff. You would think your sort would have learned that when you start labelling everyone who says something you don't like as a "racist" that the term loses all meaning and folk stop caring. That technique might have worked initially on quelling dissent but it's expired now.

[The Chlamydia Kid]

Anyone that continues to raise concerns over immigration is neither enlightened or forward thinking, they are racist, xenophobes. Put that in your Shisha pipe & smoke it. All indicators suggest that multicultirism is positive- and before you start, for every example of negativity, there are 10 examples of the opposite.

What indicators? How do you explain the anti immigration concerns of those who live in the areas that have had most immigration incidentally?

[McSpreader]

1 hour ago, DI Bruce Robertson said:

Anyone that continues to raise concerns over immigration is neither enlightened or forward thinking, they are racist, xenophobes. Put that in your Shisha pipe & smoke it. All indicators suggest that multicultirism is positive- and before you start, for every example of negativity, there are 10 examples of the opposite.

Total f*cking hogwash. I will not stand by whilst people with real concerns about mass , unfettered , unregulated and unplanned immigration are dismissed and told to sit down and lump it.

Immigration is lovely for you in your ivory tower but for those people who are competing with , and losing out to  immigrants for jobs, housing and finite resources in health provision and education are wondering what the f*ck the PC numpties who run this country and set the agenda and control the narrative are on, because it's not doing them any favours.

Multi-culturalism is not a success. Communities living in isolation and circling each other and living parallell lives is a f**k up. I

If mass immigration and multi culturalism is so wonderful why did the long standing Asian and West Indian communitues vote for Brexit in such large numbers?

The current enlightened and forward thinking model is based on targeted, strategic immigration according to the needs of the host society . 

Any other model is a recipe for conflict and resentment.

You are so far up your own arse with your arrogant and dismissive attitude you've got your own shit obscuring your vision.