The_Kincardine Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 7 minutes ago, welshbairn said: You're getting it a bit back to front. The East End of London is now a vibrant prosperous place, whereas the places white flight went to in Kent, once pleasant market towns, are hell holes. Am I picking on you? This is the 3rd of your posts I've wanted to modify today. When I graduated in 1981 we rented a basement flat in Hoxton Square before it became a 'destination place'. It did, though, have The London Apprentice...one of London's (then) foremost gay bars...a shop selling wimmins clothes for men (can't remember the name) and The Bass Clef jazz club...you can google these to verify. The "White Flight" thing wasn't a deliberate choice of the local populace to leave Shoreditch because of the influx of gays, hipsters and people of different colour as it was a very mixed area in the early 80s. It was entirely fueled by the rise in property prices and The Blessed Maggy's "right to buy" policy. Many people made a right killing buying their council flat, selling it for a fat profit then moving to Clacton to retire. So my thesis is that it was opportunism rather than a reaction to multiculturalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUFC90 Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 1 hour ago, The_Kincardine said: The great thing is that you don't have to decide - you can live and let live which 'should' be the essence of British culture. Also, I've had the joy of living in two shiteholes for a fairly long time - Motherwell and High Wycombe - and multi-racial Wycombe in 2017, for all its problems, is a much more interesting and enjoyable place than the mono-cultural Motherwell of 1967. That goes a long way to explaining things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 38 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said: Am I picking on you? This is the 3rd of your posts I've wanted to modify today. When I graduated in 1981 we rented a basement flat in Hoxton Square before it became a 'destination place'. It did, though, have The London Apprentice...one of London's (then) foremost gay bars...a shop selling wimmins clothes for men (can't remember the name) and The Bass Clef jazz club...you can google these to verify. The "White Flight" thing wasn't a deliberate choice of the local populace to leave Shoreditch because of the influx of gays, hipsters and people of different colour as it was a very mixed area in the early 80s. It was entirely fueled by the rise in property prices and The Blessed Maggy's "right to buy" policy. Many people made a right killing buying their council flat, selling it for a fat profit then moving to Clacton to retire. So my thesis is that it was opportunism rather than a reaction to multiculturalism. I disagree on a couple of points, your Honour, and concede some too. When I said Kent, I of course meant Essex, and more Billericay and Basildon than lovely Clacton. I would however say that the flight started before the Eighties, around the time Bangladeshis were replacing Jews who replaced Huguenots etc. etc.. It no doubt speeded up in the Eighties, around the same time Essex got its current unenviable reputation. I'm sure that is no coincidence. It also speeded up with developments like Canary Wharf ripping up old communities like Limehouse, which although a bit violent at times, had character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 You're kinda negating your own previous arguments here. Well done. There's also a little something called ethnic succcession theory. It strikes me that Muslims and Romanians in the south side of Glasgow are just the new Jews and Irish who bloody well wouldn't integrate and brought the rest of us down. Pretty sure in 100 years people with weird accents on their surname living in Newton Mearns will be moaning about the Uzbeks in Govanhill not integrating. Awfully optimistic to think we won't be feasting on the entrails of the Uzbeks after massacring their village for water in a radioactive wasteland . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McSpreader Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 10 hours ago, The OP said: You're kinda negating your own previous arguments here. Well done. There's also a little something called ethnic succcession theory. It strikes me that Muslims and Romanians in the south side of Glasgow are just the new Jews and Irish who bloody well wouldn't integrate and brought the rest of us down. Pretty sure in 100 years people with weird accents on their surname living in Newton Mearns will be moaning about the Uzbeks in Govanhill not integrating. There are lots of different factors in play if we're honest. Society is very different to 20 years ago ,let alone 100 yrs ago. Also, London is a different beast to most of the rest of the UK, including Glasgow. I get why people are trying hard to understand what motivates others make the choices they do , whether that is voting choices or where they choose to live, if they have the option of choice, which many don't. Personally, I support immigration and think it can add value and diversity to society and help the economy. The problem is when Gov't's such as Blair's use it as a political tool or totally disregard the effects large numbers of incomers have on established communities. It seems the complete disruption of certain types of communites is a price worth paying so long as the middle class/ wealthier members of society can have their building project completed and their cheap labour on tap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deplorable Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 12 hours ago, The_Kincardine said: The great thing is that you don't have to decide - you can live and let live which 'should' be the essence of British culture. I'm generally on the "live and let live" side of things. There are two important factors in both the US and UK culture that absolutely must be preserved. High social trust and the tendency for most people to follow most rules most of the time without some authority figure standing over you to ensure compliance. Those two things go hand in hand. One thing I've observed from certain immigrant groups in America is that they won't follow rules unless forced and tend to view those that do as suckers. This is a recipe for disaster. Live and let live and talk about a free society is all good, but as many people have observed before, such things require a people with certain habits. And then we have the issue of whether new immigrant groups are going to "let us live." In the worst case scenario for people who look and talk like us, it's basically impossible to take a live and let live approach if you happened to be born in South Africa or Zimbabwe. The culture in the majority just isn't going to allow it. I'm not saying anything remotely like that is going to happen in the US, but we have the start. California is going back to bilingual education after a referendum at the last election. This is nothing but a scheme to benefit Hispanics in the labor market long term. It's very clearly meant to disadvantage white and black people, especially in the lower classes. When I lived in south Texas my part time job was delivering pies for a Dominos. The high school students working the kitchen would openly talk about how they had gotten into the University of Texas based on being Hispanic, while the Anglos with the same qualifications were headed to branch schools. Are these new groups going to "let us live" or are the going to organize politically to gain advantages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 12 hours ago, Deplorable said: Indians weren't Americans. America was started when the English showed up on this continent. Were the Spanish not there first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deplorable Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 14 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said: Were the Spanish not there first? I think the Spanish landed in what is now Florida and were the first Europeans in territory now held by the US. By "America" I meant my country, not the whole Western Hemisphere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob the tank Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 St Augustine, Florida is the oldest city in America, founded by Spain, then taken over by the French, and features a fort made out of cocina which is a type of coral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 2 hours ago, Deplorable said: I think the Spanish landed in what is now Florida and were the first Europeans in territory now held by the US. By "America" I meant my country, not the whole Western Hemisphere. Florida is part of America, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The OP Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 I realise Trump was mentioned in the opening post, but I don't know how relevant made-up pizza pie stories from South Texas are to people on a Scottish football forum. I'm also not entirely clear on how people who are apparently driving down wages by labouring for endless hours below minimum wage have a culture of not following orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Cort's Hamstring Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 When black/ethnic minority folk talk about racial bias still being entrenched, this is the kind of thing we mean: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/23/idaho-football-coat-hanger-rape-john-rk-howard-plea-deal?CMP=share_btn_tw If the ethnicities of the attacker and victim were reversed, it's utterly inconceivable that the attacker would be treated so leniently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 39 minutes ago, Carl Cort's Hamstring said: When black/ethnic minority folk talk about racial bias still being entrenched, this is the kind of thing we mean: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/23/idaho-football-coat-hanger-rape-john-rk-howard-plea-deal?CMP=share_btn_tw If the ethnicities of the attacker and victim were reversed, it's utterly inconceivable that the attacker would be treated so leniently. I'm glad you posted that. It's fucking harrowing but it's important to know that these things are happening. And yes, if the ethnicities were reversed the attacker would have received, at the very least, an appropriate sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Carl Cort's Hamstring said: When black/ethnic minority folk talk about racial bias still being entrenched, this is the kind of thing we mean: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/23/idaho-football-coat-hanger-rape-john-rk-howard-plea-deal?CMP=share_btn_tw If the ethnicities of the attacker and victim were reversed, it's utterly inconceivable that the attacker would be treated so leniently. What's the world coming to when you can't grab the slow boy in the room with your friends and shove a coat hanger up his arse without having to attend "classes in racial sensitivity and anti-bullying". PC gone mad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deplorable Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 On 2/23/2017 at 04:37, kilbowie2002 said: Bilingual education is a good thing, its proven that when kids are taught two languages they perform better on average than one. I fail to see the disadvantage in learning and being taught in two languages. Yes. You are correct. There are two issues in California. 1. Bilingual education has been shown to keep Spanish speaking kids from learning English. 2. Bilingual education helps rich white kids learn Chinese and avoid the wrong schools without seeming racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deplorable Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 On 2/23/2017 at 09:32, Carl Cort's Hamstring said: When black/ethnic minority folk talk about racial bias still being entrenched, this is the kind of thing we mean: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/23/idaho-football-coat-hanger-rape-john-rk-howard-plea-deal?CMP=share_btn_tw If the ethnicities of the attacker and victim were reversed, it's utterly inconceivable that the attacker would be treated so leniently. I heard about this when it happened. It was a big deal here. I looked it up right now and he did not receive jail time. The only explanation I can give is that he was under 18. Kids do stupid things. Hopefully he becomes a contributing member of society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crossbill Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Racists who pointed shotgun at kids jailed for 35 years. https://boingboing.net/2017/02/28/watch-racists-blubber-in-court.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deplorable Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 7 minutes ago, Crossbill said: Racists who pointed shotgun at kids jailed for 35 years. https://boingboing.net/2017/02/28/watch-racists-blubber-in-court.html Yep. Been all over the news here. I'm for it. The news is trying to make it seem like it was about the Confederate flag, but it was about loading a shotgun and pointing it at kids. Rot in jail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deplorable Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 On 2/23/2017 at 04:37, kilbowie2002 said: Bilingual education is a good thing, its proven that when kids are taught two languages they perform better on average than one. I fail to see the disadvantage in learning and being taught in two languages. Sorry to quote you twice, but I want to make sure that what I'm saying makes it's way though correct. "Bilingual Spanish" education makes it so that the children of immigrants do not learn adequate English in school. In English emersion it means that kids who don't know English are taught the language to the point where they can sit in a regular class and are then tested for the correct grade. It's best long term for the immigrants and for the people who live in this country already. I moved in high school to a small town in Indiana. For a few months per year there were kids from Texas that came to our school because their parents picked tomato's in the fields. We literally couldn't talk to these kids because they only spoke Spanish. Our school system had to hire a Spanish speaker to deal with these kids. They were all born in America. It would be better for them, for my fellow students, and for our town if they spoke English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madwullie Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Bilingual education implies they are getting taught both in their home language and English. I can't see why anyone would have a problem with that. It takes 3 years to become fluent in a language through immersion, and around 7 years to develop the academic English needed to achieve higher qualifications. By forcing kids to learn in English you potentially stunt their development and have them achieving far less than their intelligence would allow were they taught in their home language, something we see here on a daily basis with some clearly intelligent Polish and other Eastern European kids stuck in low achieving classes, for their entire school career, simply because they cannot access the curriculum. When it comes down to it it's not their fault their parents moved to this country and we should maximise their opportunities, not force them to achieve below their potential and the ramifications that has on them and on society in future years. Besides, as bilingualism has been proven (as noted above) to increase intelligence, these kids should be seen as an asset to the workforce and any investment in their learning should reap rewards future, as well as helping them to integrate in the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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