Lions Watch 2017

[Snobot]

12 hours ago, Savage Henry said:

Yup.  You don't get many reds in rugby, but that's as clear cut as they come (not to say all clear cut red cards receive them - thinking of an Irish tackle on Finn Russell in particular which nearly caused a riot).

Remember this on Hoyland? A couple of months in jail, never mind red card would have been appropriate - result? Penalty 

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/bbarry/fergus-mcfadden-damien-hoyland/

 

 

[peasy23]

Remember this on Hoyland? A couple of months in jail, never mind red card would have been appropriate - result? Penalty 
http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/bbarry/fergus-mcfadden-damien-hoyland/
 
 

I remember watching that live, couldn't believe that he wasn't red carded. A red and a penalty try would have been appropriate imo.

I see the NZ Herald are taking it well, they gave Itoje 4/10 in their match ratings.

[dogmc]

Yeah I'll have to google it, but in my memory there has always at least been a Scot off the bench in the tests. That being said who knows about early tours.

Think Ritchie grey got a token (very blatantly token 5 min in 3rd test v Oz in 2013). Possibly better to look at the most obviously successful tours like 74 89 n 97 (not least because actually lions tour wins are surprisingly rare) and they have always had a fairly healthy Scottish contingent. Conversely the fewer Scots n the less impressive the lions have been eg the scw tour and 83. The 2013 vintage were up against a dire Oz side that we had beaten home n away. It's was something of a minter to have to go to a decider in 3rd test.

[ajwffc]

This is the Scottish representation of Lions test from 1983 to 2013 using lineups that i could find 

2013 Australia 

test 1(21-23 win)

Maitland unused sub 

test 2 (16-15 defeat)

Grant unused sub

test 3(41-16 win)

R. Gray sub 67min 

2009 (Ian McGeechan) South Africa 

test 1 (26-21 defeat)

no Scots in the match day 22 

Test 2(28-25 defeat)

Ross Ford unused sub 

Test 3 (28-9 win)

Ross Ford sub 37min

2005 (Clive Woodward) New Zealand 

Test 1 (21-3 defeat)

no Scots in match day 22

Test 2 (48-18 defeat )

no Scots in match day 22 

Test 3 (38-19 defeat)

Gordon Bulloch came on as a sub

2001 (Graham Henry) Australia 

Test 1 (29-13 win)

Tom Smith started, Gordon Bulloch on as sub

Test 2 (35-14 defeat)

Tom Smith stated , 

Test 3 (29-23 defeat)

Tom Smith started ,Andy Nicol unused sub?

1997 (Ian McGeechan/Jim Telfer) South Africa 

Test 1 (25-16 win)

Tom Smith and Townsend started, Rob Wainwright unused sub

Test 2 (18-15 win)

Tom Smith, Townsend and Alan Tait Started 

Test 3 (35-16defeat)

Tom Smith and Rob Wainwright Started 

1993 (Ian McGeechan) New Zealand 

Test 1 (20-18 Defeat)

Gavin Hastings, Paul Brunell, Kenny Milne, Andy Reed all started  

Test 2 (20-7 win)

Gavin Hastings started Paul Brunell, Kenny Milne unused subs

Test 3 (30-13 defeat)

Gavin Hastings started Paul Brunell, Kenny Milne unused subs

1989 (Ian McGeechan) Australia 

Test 1 (30-12 defeat)

Gavin Hastings, Craig Chalmers, David Sole, Finlay Calder, Derek White  Started Gary Armstrong, John Jeffery unused subs

Test 2 (19-12 win)

Gavin Hastings,Scott Hastings,David Sole, Finlay Calder all started  Gary Armstrong, Craig Chalmers, Derek White unsed subs 

Test 3 (19-18 win)

Gavin Hastings,Scott Hastings,David Sole, Finlay Calder all started Gary Armstrong, Craig Chalmers, Derek White unsed subs 

1983 (Jim Telfer) New Zealand 

Test 1 (16-12 defeat)

Roger Baird, Iain Paxton started Roy Laidlaw sub on John Rutherford, John Beattie, Colin Deans unused subs

Test 2 (9-0 defeat)

Roger Baird, Roy Laidlaw, Iain Paxton started John Beattie, sub on John Rutherford,Colin Deans, Iain Milne unused subs 

Test 3 (15-8 defeat)

Roger Baird, Roy Laidlaw, Iain Paxton,John Rutherford, Jim Calder, All started John Beattie, Colin Deans, Iain Milne unused subs

Test 4 (38-6 defeat) 

Roger Baird, Roy Laidlaw, Iain Paxton all started Colin Deans unused sub

One off non tour games 

1986(Mick Doyle)

v The Rest (7-15 defeat) as part of IRB centenary celebrations 

Gavin Hastings, John Rutherford,  Colin Deans, John Beattie, all started Iain Paxton sub on 

1989(Ian McGeechan)

v France (29-20 win) part of French bi-centennial celebrations

Gavin Hastings,Scott Hastings,Damian Cronin all played 

1990(Roger Uttley)

v Rest of Europe (43-18 win) not a full Lions game but a Four Home Unions using the lions badge for a carity match in the aid of Romania

 Gavin Hastings, Tony Stanger, ,David Sole, John Jeffery started Craig Chalmers,  Kenny Milne, Derek Turnbull used subs 

[ChoppeReid]

This is the Scottish representation of Lions test from 1983 to 2013 using lineups that i could find 
2013 Australia 
test 1(21-23 win)
Maitland unused sub 
test 2 (16-15 defeat)
Grant unused sub
test 3(41-16 win)
R. Gray sub 67min 
2009 (Ian McGeechan) South Africa 
test 1 (26-21 defeat)
no Scots in the match day 22 
Test 2(28-25 defeat)
Ross Ford unused sub 
Test 3 (28-9 win)
Ross Ford sub 37min
2005 (Clive Woodward) New Zealand 
Test 1 (21-3 defeat)
no Scots in match day 22
Test 2 (48-18 defeat )
no Scots in match day 22 
Test 3 (38-19 defeat)
Gordon Bulloch came on as a sub
2001 (Graham Henry) Australia 
Test 1 (29-13 win)
Tom Smith started, Gordon Bulloch on as sub
Test 2 (35-14 defeat)
Tom Smith stated , 
Test 3 (29-23 defeat)
Tom Smith started ,Andy Nicol unused sub?
1997 (Ian McGeechan/Jim Telfer) South Africa 
Test 1 (25-16 win)
Tom Smith and Townsend started, Rob Wainwright unused sub
Test 2 (18-15 win)
Tom Smith, Townsend and Alan Tait Started 
Test 3 (35-16defeat)
Tom Smith and Rob Wainwright Started 
1993 (Ian McGeechan) New Zealand 
Test 1 (20-18 Defeat)
Gavin Hastings, Paul Brunell, Kenny Milne, Andy Reed all started  
Test 2 (20-7 win)
Gavin Hastings started Paul Brunell, Kenny Milne unused subs
Test 3 (30-13 defeat)
Gavin Hastings started Paul Brunell, Kenny Milne unused subs
1989 (Ian McGeechan) Australia 
Test 1 (30-12 defeat)
Gavin Hastings, Craig Chalmers, David Sole, Finlay Calder, Derek White  Started Gary Armstrong, John Jeffery unused subs
Test 2 (19-12 win)
Gavin Hastings,Scott Hastings,David Sole, Finlay Calder all started  Gary Armstrong, Craig Chalmers, Derek White unsed subs 
Test 3 (19-18 win)
Gavin Hastings,Scott Hastings,David Sole, Finlay Calder all started Gary Armstrong, Craig Chalmers, Derek White unsed subs 
1983 (Jim Telfer) New Zealand 
Test 1 (16-12 defeat)
Roger Baird, Iain Paxton started Roy Laidlaw sub on John Rutherford, John Beattie, Colin Deans unused subs
Test 2 (9-0 defeat)
Roger Baird, Roy Laidlaw, Iain Paxton started John Beattie, sub on John Rutherford,Colin Deans, Iain Milne unused subs 
Test 3 (15-8 defeat)
Roger Baird, Roy Laidlaw, Iain Paxton,John Rutherford, Jim Calder, All started John Beattie, Colin Deans, Iain Milne unused subs
Test 4 (38-6 defeat) 
Roger Baird, Roy Laidlaw, Iain Paxton all started Colin Deans unused sub
One off non tour games 
1986(Mick Doyle)
v The Rest (7-15 defeat) as part of IRB centenary celebrations 
Gavin Hastings, John Rutherford,  Colin Deans, John Beattie, all started Iain Paxton sub on 
1989(Ian McGeechan)
v France (29-20 win) part of French bi-centennial celebrations
Gavin Hastings,Scott Hastings,Damian Cronin all played 
1990(Roger Uttley)
v Rest of Europe (43-18 win) not a full Lions game but a Four Home Unions using the lions badge for a carity match in the aid of Romania
 Gavin Hastings, Tony Stanger, ,David Sole, John Jeffery started Craig Chalmers,  Kenny Milne, Derek Turnbull used subs 

Thanks for that.

Lack of Scots really his home when you see it like that.

No starters in 16 years and probably 20.

It's not like we haven't had the odd decent player in those years.

[ajwffc]

Thanks for that.

Lack of Scots really his home when you see it like that.

No starters in 16 years and probably 20.

It's not like we haven't had the odd decent player in those years.

We have had a number of players play in the midweek side some as captain. We also have the player with the largest number of International caps for a home nation and not to even be called up in Chris Patterson

[dogmc]

This is the Scottish representation of Lions test from 1983 to 2013 using lineups that i could find 
2013 Australia 
test 1(21-23 win)
Maitland unused sub 
test 2 (16-15 defeat)
Grant unused sub
test 3(41-16 win)
R. Gray sub 67min 
2009 (Ian McGeechan) South Africa 
test 1 (26-21 defeat)
no Scots in the match day 22 
Test 2(28-25 defeat)
Ross Ford unused sub 
Test 3 (28-9 win)
Ross Ford sub 37min
2005 (Clive Woodward) New Zealand 
Test 1 (21-3 defeat)
no Scots in match day 22
Test 2 (48-18 defeat )
no Scots in match day 22 
Test 3 (38-19 defeat)
Gordon Bulloch came on as a sub
2001 (Graham Henry) Australia 
Test 1 (29-13 win)
Tom Smith started, Gordon Bulloch on as sub
Test 2 (35-14 defeat)
Tom Smith stated , 
Test 3 (29-23 defeat)
Tom Smith started ,Andy Nicol unused sub?
1997 (Ian McGeechan/Jim Telfer) South Africa 
Test 1 (25-16 win)
Tom Smith and Townsend started, Rob Wainwright unused sub
Test 2 (18-15 win)
Tom Smith, Townsend and Alan Tait Started 
Test 3 (35-16defeat)
Tom Smith and Rob Wainwright Started 
1993 (Ian McGeechan) New Zealand 
Test 1 (20-18 Defeat)
Gavin Hastings, Paul Brunell, Kenny Milne, Andy Reed all started  
Test 2 (20-7 win)
Gavin Hastings started Paul Brunell, Kenny Milne unused subs
Test 3 (30-13 defeat)
Gavin Hastings started Paul Brunell, Kenny Milne unused subs
1989 (Ian McGeechan) Australia 
Test 1 (30-12 defeat)
Gavin Hastings, Craig Chalmers, David Sole, Finlay Calder, Derek White  Started Gary Armstrong, John Jeffery unused subs
Test 2 (19-12 win)
Gavin Hastings,Scott Hastings,David Sole, Finlay Calder all started  Gary Armstrong, Craig Chalmers, Derek White unsed subs 
Test 3 (19-18 win)
Gavin Hastings,Scott Hastings,David Sole, Finlay Calder all started Gary Armstrong, Craig Chalmers, Derek White unsed subs 
1983 (Jim Telfer) New Zealand 
Test 1 (16-12 defeat)
Roger Baird, Iain Paxton started Roy Laidlaw sub on John Rutherford, John Beattie, Colin Deans unused subs
Test 2 (9-0 defeat)
Roger Baird, Roy Laidlaw, Iain Paxton started John Beattie, sub on John Rutherford,Colin Deans, Iain Milne unused subs 
Test 3 (15-8 defeat)
Roger Baird, Roy Laidlaw, Iain Paxton,John Rutherford, Jim Calder, All started John Beattie, Colin Deans, Iain Milne unused subs
Test 4 (38-6 defeat) 
Roger Baird, Roy Laidlaw, Iain Paxton all started Colin Deans unused sub
One off non tour games 
1986(Mick Doyle)
v The Rest (7-15 defeat) as part of IRB centenary celebrations 
Gavin Hastings, John Rutherford,  Colin Deans, John Beattie, all started Iain Paxton sub on 
1989(Ian McGeechan)
v France (29-20 win) part of French bi-centennial celebrations
Gavin Hastings,Scott Hastings,Damian Cronin all played 
1990(Roger Uttley)
v Rest of Europe (43-18 win) not a full Lions game but a Four Home Unions using the lions badge for a carity match in the aid of Romania
 Gavin Hastings, Tony Stanger, ,David Sole, John Jeffery started Craig Chalmers,  Kenny Milne, Derek Turnbull used subs 

It's very hard on the basis of that to argue that we haven't been unfairly discriminated against in recent series.

[Mark Connolly]

20 minutes ago, dogmc said:

It's very hard on the basis of that to argue that we haven't been unfairly discriminated against in recent series.

Out of interest, who do you think should have featured, and ahead of which players that were selected?

[John Lambies Doos]

We have had a number of players play in the midweek side some as captain. We also have the player with the largest number of International caps for a home nation and not to even be called up in Chris Patterson

In fairness Patterson, apart from his place kicking, was pretty shite

[Savage Henry]

10 hours ago, ChoppeReid said:

Thanks for that.

Lack of Scots really his home when you see it like that.

No starters in 16 years and probably 20.

It's not like we haven't had the odd decent player in those years.

Scotland have been pretty terrible for most of those years.  It's only since Cotter (and for parts, Robinson) that the team has been legitimately competitive. I really can't think of the odd player who ought to have been called up but wasn't.   That said, there are a couple of players who I had absolutely no recollection of being Lions players, and who weren't very good, who did get called up for tours and played.

[ChoppeReid]

Scotland have been pretty terrible for most of those years.  It's only since Cotter (and for parts, Robinson) that the team has been legitimately competitive. I really can't think of the odd player who ought to have been called up but wasn't.   That said, there are a couple of players who I had absolutely no recollection of being Lions players, and who weren't very good, who did get called up for tours and played.

In 16 years we haven't had a single player that wasn't able too start a lions test.

How about someone like Ewan Murray.

[Savage Henry]

22 minutes ago, ChoppeReid said:

In 16 years we haven't had a single player that wasn't able too start a lions test.

How about someone like Ewan Murray.

That's a good shout, actually.  I'm guessing his Sunday beliefs and his injury record counted against him, but yes, I'm surprised he never toured.  

[ChoppeReid]

That's a good shout, actually.  I'm guessing his Sunday beliefs and his injury record counted against him, but yes, I'm surprised he never toured.  

Just looked up Wikipedia.

Apparently was there on 2009 but got injured in warm up games. [emoji23]

[same_ol_g35]

In fairness Patterson, apart from his place kicking, was pretty shite

I always felt Paterson's form and development suffered due to his position being chopped and changed so much for Scotland.

[John Lambies Doos]

 

 

I always felt Paterson's form and development suffered due to his position being chopped and changed so much for Scotland.

 

Maybe. But he was too slight. At fault for us getting dumped out of RWC 2011

 

[Snobot]

2 hours ago, ChoppeReid said:

Just looked up Wikipedia.

Apparently was there on 2009 but got injured in warm up games.

As far as I can remember, he was far and away the form tight head at the time and had made mincemeat of the SA prop "the Beast" Mtawarira while playing for Scotland in the Autumn.

 

The forwards coach was one W. Gatland and the scrum coach a Mr G Rowntree. Whatever happened to them? Inexplicably, Murray was picked for the dirt-trackers in the midweek before the test, meaning he wasn't in contention for the test team, and he got injured in that midweek game.

 

I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure that was what happened.

[honestly united]

To be honest i think this is the first tour where I have been genuinely agreived about the lack of Scots being picked, as in the last few I dont think we deserved anymore than had been selected. Its a different story about the treatment of players once they got on tour (Murray / Grant etc) but up till now I dont think we have had any players who were a standout

[The Gudderman]

I think Ewan Murray seen more action doing player cam in 2009 than he did Lions action. He seemed like a good lad in the documentary and he did get sent home early after getting injured.

Read about him being an absolute beast in the scrum too. The article was about youngsters scrummaging and the hazards to them before muscles etc were fully developed. They used him as an example for how much torque was generated by the props and they had him down as the highest generator.

[printer]

So now Chris Paterson wasn't a good player! [emoji23]

[John Lambies Doos]

So now Chris Paterson wasn't a good player! [emoji23]

Not really compared to his peers at the elite level. Better than me tho