A fully integrated pyramid system - Proposal

[honestly united]

I still dont get what Junior teams have against joining a pyramid, as if they joined on mass it would probably make no difference at all to 95% of the teams. The whole point of a pyramid system is that you start off at the bottom end in local leagues (ie Ayrshire / Central) as you move up it takes in a wider area (ie West) as you get higher up better facilities are required ie Floodlights, cover area's for fans until you reach a national league.

At present as only 4 or 5 junior clubs have a licence if the juniors joined the pyramid then only those clubs would have a chance at promotion SO FOR ALL THE REST NOTHING WOULD CHANGE, except for the possibility one day you COULD get to the Lowland League and even the SPFL if you have the facilities and you win the league and play off.

Nobody on joining the pyramid is going to be forced to play nationally, you will still be playing in local leagues with local teams. For those good enough, with the ambition and facilities there is a chance to progress higher, for everyone else there would be no change whatsoever. 

[wintonfan]

folk say junior football is dying, fact is from a spectator point of view almost every sport is in the same position, look at senior football crowds, rugby crowds. People would rather sit in their warm houses watching some game on sky on a 50 inch telly with a few beers and their mates as opposed to actually going out into the cold and watching live sport. Without bums on seats or feet on terraces the money is not going to come into the game, as long as there is top class football on TV people will take the easy option, they will say it doesnt coast anything as they have already paid the subscription fee for other viewings, they already have the big telly etc. They see watching a game on tv with a few beers and food as a cheap afternoon's entertainment. Once people are in the couch potato mode they arent going to get out of it. Now a few clubs are trying by having the lunchtime TV game on in the clubs, get to ground, watch game with a beer then venture outside and watch the juniors, it probably just about works

fact is we as non league football have a massive challenge to change behavior on a saturday afternoon that is now 2 generations old 

[Burnie_man]

37 minutes ago, wintonfan said:

folk say junior football is dying, fact is from a spectator point of view almost every sport is in the same position, look at senior football crowds, rugby crowds. People would rather sit in their warm houses watching some game on sky on a 50 inch telly with a few beers and their mates as opposed to actually going out into the cold and watching live sport. Without bums on seats or feet on terraces the money is not going to come into the game, as long as there is top class football on TV people will take the easy option, they will say it doesnt coast anything as they have already paid the subscription fee for other viewings, they already have the big telly etc. They see watching a game on tv with a few beers and food as a cheap afternoon's entertainment. Once people are in the couch potato mode they arent going to get out of it. Now a few clubs are trying by having the lunchtime TV game on in the clubs, get to ground, watch game with a beer then venture outside and watch the juniors, it probably just about works

fact is we as non league football have a massive challenge to change behavior on a saturday afternoon that is now 2 generations old 

 

I’d disagree with that to an extent, its easy to blame TV, some crowds in the Premiership do appear to be holding up or actually on the rise. The OF are obvious, but Hearts sell out every week and Aberdeen have seen attendances increase, Hibs are drawing big crowds in the Championship. There will be other examples.  It’s not all rosy of course but people will get off the couch and cough up the cash if what they think they are going to see is worth it in their eyes.

 

Where Junior football falls down is that it is not run on a professional basis. We have archaic rules (re-instatement), we have archaic fixture planning (ie none), in many cases we have archaic grounds (no floodlights, no seated stands, terrible toilet facilities) and on the whole its very poorly promoted.  So, regardless of whether it’s cheap to watch, it discourages the casual football fan from attending this level of football and the SJFA are sitting on their hands.

 

Contrast that to the Lowland League which has taken small, steady steps to offer something different, clubs are getting floodlights installed, clubs are installing small stands, they have a season long fixture list, the league results and fixtures appear on the BBC website and elsewhere, all their clubs take part in the Scottish Cup. Over time, that will begin to tell as people will recognise it as a professionally run league. Again, it’s not perfect and there are flaws in its set-up IMO, but they are doing the right thing with what they currently have.

 

The SJFA are showing zero leadership, it’s time for clubs/officials who buy into and understand the pyramid concept to call them out and start making a noise.

[Guest]

A subject oft discussed and one that divides opinion where tribalism comes to the fore as does defensiveness. During the construction of the Lowland League I was totally against a pyramid due to my perceived view of the agenda and the apparent stitch up. I considered that the whole thing was pushed through with no real attention to detail so long as the SFA ticked the pyramid box and could say they have toed the line, although in reality only paid lip service to the whole concept. I thought that this was no improvement for Junior clubs, especially big one.

I however now think that we need to do something and that Junior clubs will have to give consideration to some sort of merge and really need to become involved in discussion and negotiation. I have put my proposals out on other threads often enough, but one part of that I know would never be implemented due to self serving interests. I thought Kilbowie 2002 made some very valid points as did some others.

[tinto]

This debate seems to have been going on for a very long time.

Looking from afar I think in its heyday Junior Football was great. However nowadays it is mickey mouse and hardly likely to get any better. They should integrate into the National system and go on from there.

 

 

[edinabear]

From what I can see on this forum, and with people I have spoken to, opinions seemed to have changed even in the last couple of years, to the idea of some sort of merger between the associations. Fan power can play a big part in pushing for this change in raising the issue with board members and chairman. 

Hopefully we will see some movement towards this in the next couple of seasons.

[marconi]

It is easy to turn up for a couple of hours on a saturday,then sit at your keyboard and spout all kinds of magnificent theories. I think it would be beneficial for most of the posters to join their clubs committee for a while and find out just how a junior team is run and the cost of some of the items they want. A set of lights would cost about thirty thousand and then you need to light access etc. for spectators to comply with regulations . Most parks are maintained by volunteers so when could repairs be made following a mid=week match , a lot of players have problems getting to grounds for  6.00/6.30 so teams would play weakened teams. It is hard to get supporters to attend on a saturday so how many would leave the house on a wet windy,snowy night  in mid december. As a long time junior fan and former committee member of one of the top teams in the west [i left  committee when i moved house] i cannot see any advantage to junior teams joining a pyramid system

[honestly united]

11 minutes ago, marconi said:

It is easy to turn up for a couple of hours on a saturday,then sit at your keyboard and spout all kinds of magnificent theories. I think it would be beneficial for most of the posters to join their clubs committee for a while and find out just how a junior team is run and the cost of some of the items they want. A set of lights would cost about thirty thousand and then you need to light access etc. for spectators to comply with regulations . Most parks are maintained by volunteers so when could repairs be made following a mid=week match , a lot of players have problems getting to grounds for  6.00/6.30 so teams would play weakened teams. It is hard to get supporters to attend on a saturday so how many would leave the house on a wet windy,snowy night  in mid december. As a long time junior fan and former committee member of one of the top teams in the west [i left  committee when i moved house] i cannot see any advantage to junior teams joining a pyramid system

You dont have to spend thousands on lights etc to join the pyramid. Every junior club could do that now if they wanted to. 

What you are talking about is the requirements for a licence which you only need if you have ambitions of joining the lowland league or progressing higher. For the vast majority of teams they would still be playing on a saturday, with no changes to facilities against the same teams they are now. The only difference being if you are a top end superleague team their would be the opportunity to progress to the lowland league, if you wanted to, and had the licence. No one would be forced to get a licence, a lot of the teams in the EoS and SoSL dont have them.

[Burnie_man]

11 minutes ago, marconi said:

It is easy to turn up for a couple of hours on a saturday,then sit at your keyboard and spout all kinds of magnificent theories. I think it would be beneficial for most of the posters to join their clubs committee for a while and find out just how a junior team is run and the cost of some of the items they want. A set of lights would cost about thirty thousand and then you need to light access etc. for spectators to comply with regulations . Most parks are maintained by volunteers so when could repairs be made following a mid=week match , a lot of players have problems getting to grounds for  6.00/6.30 so teams would play weakened teams. It is hard to get supporters to attend on a saturday so how many would leave the house on a wet windy,snowy night  in mid december. As a long time junior fan and former committee member of one of the top teams in the west [i left  committee when i moved house] i cannot see any advantage to junior teams joining a pyramid system

A fairly condescending opening to your post, personally I was on a committee for over 20 years and have been a fan for over 30, I'm sure other contributors on this thread are similar, or are very aware of what it takes to run a football club.

I'm not even sure what relevance playing in midweek has, is that the reason you're opposed? are you saying that clubs who play in the Juniors are incapable of doing what those in the Highland League and Lowland League do? (and even the East of Scotland and South of Scotland leagues). This is on par with the myth of £150k toilet blocks.

Attitudes like this need constantly challenged as they're, with respect, a pile of bollocks.

[black white]

withdrawn by forum member

[Burnie_man]

25 minutes ago, kilbowie2002 said:

Its the usual argument from the folks who are resistant to change. I'd love to be on the board at Clydebank however i currently have a job where im expressly forbidden from holding a directorship and work shifts that mean id miss games, but having been the club kitman etc I can say I certainly did my bit when younger and will again when i can, certainly doesnt mean im not entitled to an opinion especially a positive one surely!

People have reservations whenever the word "Pyramid" is used, I get that, but when ridiculous arguments are used to oppose the idea of Junior clubs becoming involved they deserve to be called out.  It's time the game moved forward without these luddites holding it back.

[Burnie_man]

5 minutes ago, hareskirky said:

So just move forward leave behind a decent group of people many of whom have kept many clubs going for many a year. Aye very good.

Are you actually going to post something that makes sense, who is getting left behind?

If we moved into a Pyramid tomorrow, 95% of Junior clubs/committee/fans wouldn't actually notice any difference, things carry on virtually unchanged, but we might actually benefit from a more professionally run game.

[Sunrise]

2 hours ago, honestly united said:

You dont have to spend thousands on lights etc to join the pyramid. Every junior club could do that now if they wanted to. 

At the current moment there is no need for most junior clubs tae have lights with most (in the West region at least) comfortably halfway through our season.

It'd be different in the pyramid - but lights aren't a factor at the moment.

[WaffenThinMint]

2 hours ago, marconi said:

It is easy to turn up for a couple of hours on a saturday,then sit at your keyboard and spout all kinds of magnificent theories. I think it would be beneficial for most of the posters to join their clubs committee for a while and find out just how a junior team is run and the cost of some of the items they want. A set of lights would cost about thirty thousand and then you need to light access etc. for spectators to comply with regulations . Most parks are maintained by volunteers so when could repairs be made following a mid=week match , a lot of players have problems getting to grounds for  6.00/6.30 so teams would play weakened teams. It is hard to get supporters to attend on a saturday so how many would leave the house on a wet windy,snowy night  in mid december. As a long time junior fan and former committee member of one of the top teams in the west [i left  committee when i moved house] i cannot see any advantage to junior teams joining a pyramid system

Those "people who turn up for a couple of hours on a Saturday then sit at keyboards spouting theories" are those dwindling members of the paying public that still care less. When they cease to do so, you'll have even more cause to worry, when it's too late.

There are equally plenty on here that know only too well what the costs are for Juniors having been on/are on club boards (in some cases quitting in despair) & watched as the available cash shrinks year after year, yet all attempts at changes within clubs - let alone the grade - are met with intransigence: except for certain clubs who appear to not merely have pulled away from the rest as a result, but have vanished over the horizon - naming no Auchinleck Talbots in particular who silenced the old lie "this is Junior football, it can't be done without a sugar daddy".

A lot of those on this thread you are dismissing are the very ones who cursed the Lowlands to damnation & scoffed "the gimmick" wouldn't last two seasons, only to see that it's now looking ever increasingly likely that the renegade East Kilbride club set up because certain individuals couldn't get their own way at East Kilbride Thistle are heading towards promotion to the SPFL. If ever there was a metaphor that non-league Scottish football's "will never happen" is happening, this was it.

Junior clubs can't kid themselves any longer that a set up run on Micawber Principles is good enough any more. Fans, sponsors and players expectations from a club have become greater - & if they're not met, they'll take themselves elsewhere. Appeals in times of crisis all too often falls on deaf ears in a era many don't know or care who are their next door neighbours, let alone have a flicker of sentiment towards "the town's/village's club". Times have changed, and Junior clubs need to change with them - or die.

[Sunrise]

37 minutes ago, kilbowie2002 said:

Absolutely no one is saying that any junior club would be required to have lights.

Aware that would be the case (up to a level), just responding to the post suggesting why there aren't many lights in the juniors.

[marconi]

I used floodlights as an example of costs involved as  i saw an estimate for the supply of a set last year  I am bemused  by this talk of boards and directors  .most junior teams are run by a committee elected yearly so all  you need to do is find enough like  minded  people,go to your clubs A.G.M. and take over. Then you can join any league you want.

[Shanner]

3 hours ago, marconi said:

It is easy to turn up for a couple of hours on a saturday,then sit at your keyboard and spout all kinds of magnificent theories. I think it would be beneficial for most of the posters to join their clubs committee for a while and find out just how a junior team is run and the cost of some of the items they want. A set of lights would cost about thirty thousand and then you need to light access etc. for spectators to comply with regulations . Most parks are maintained by volunteers so when could repairs be made following a mid=week match , a lot of players have problems getting to grounds for  6.00/6.30 so teams would play weakened teams. It is hard to get supporters to attend on a saturday so how many would leave the house on a wet windy,snowy night  in mid december. As a long time junior fan and former committee member of one of the top teams in the west [i left  committee when i moved house] i cannot see any advantage to junior teams joining a pyramid system

Quite depressing that this attitude isn't that uncommon. 

[HTG]

30 minutes ago, marconi said:

I used floodlights as an example of costs involved as  i saw an estimate for the supply of a set last year  I am bemused  by this talk of boards and directors  .most junior teams are run by a committee elected yearly so all  you need to do is find enough like  minded  people,go to your clubs A.G.M. and take over. Then you can join any league you want.

I assume if you followed through on the "all you need to do" line there would be uproar that simply doesn't need to happen. What a pyramid does is enables every club to play at the level that suits its need, ambition or capabilities. If there are clubs who can do no more than run hard to stand still then they'll find their place in a pyramid structure that aligns to what they can do rather than demand they do something they are not capable of. But it also opens up the opportunity to move up for those who do want to emulate Edinburgh City. Why should folk feel the need to "take over" clubs for something as simple as playing in an integrated structure rather than one that runs out of steam at the top and is closed to good amateur teams at the bottom? Unless of course we're seeing the same protectionism of the lower end of the juniors - the very same protectionism many often sneer at the SPFL for engaging in. 

[Father Ted]

If all parties could agree then the most simpliest way would be:

East & West Super Prems filter into Lowland League.

North Juniors & North Caledonian League filter into Highland League.

Expand Lowland & Highland Leagues a little.

As for amateur game, wouldn't know where to start. Need someone better qualified than me.

[HTG]

12 minutes ago, Father Ted said:

If all parties could agree then the most simpliest way would be:

East & West Super Prems filter into Lowland League.

North Juniors & North Caledonian League filter into Highland League.

Expand Lowland & Highland Leagues a little.

As for amateur game, wouldn't know where to start. Need someone better qualified than me.

This is maybe a step beyond the principles of a pyramid but the skewed geography of Scotland would demand that in the regional levels of the pyramid much greater weighting would need to be applied to the south in comparison to the north. There is simply no way that you could equate Tier 6 (below HL and LL) as of equivalent standard. Essentially you would be giving parity to the north juniors alongside the east and west (and EOS and SOS leagues as things stand). Every statistic known to man tells you that the top 12 teams at a push in the north (including HL) would stand comparison with an integrated structure in the south which would cover the top 12 in the West, East and Lowland League. I guess what I'm saying is that as an illustration, the south end of a geographical and integrated split will have about 3 times the depth of quality of the north - at every tier. And the tiers will just run out completely in the north. These are very practical matters that need to be resolved but they're not a reason not to have an integrated approach and to get on with solving the problems.