A fully integrated pyramid system - Proposal

[LeeKRR1878]

You're not going to benefit every club, but should we hold back on reform because a few clubs don't want to pay for buses?

Clubs need to cut their cloth to suit financially, for too long players have been paid stupid money for playing at middle of the road clubs where facilities leave a lot to be desired.

A sensible conversation needs to begin on this, the pyramid isn't going to go away and the SJFA sticking their head in the sand isn't going to benefit member clubs.

I hear what you're saying. Maybe a start would be a lot more fairer distribution of prize money etc right across the board. If it cripples clubs financially then I can see some going under unfortunately. Because in Scotland we have this weird idea that when a club is struggling with money and in mass amounts of debt, instead of helping that club out we decide to impose more fines on that club making it even harder for them to balance their books.

I know we keep going back to the English model but when a club struggles with debt etc then the FA step in and help that club out. Now I know the money is night and day here and south of the border. This is just my thinking on why a lot of clubs may be put off this whole idea.

But yeah they could help themselves too in investing in facilities instead of stupid wages for players.

The SJFA do have to open up a little and listen to proposals and maybe we'll find something in the future that is exciting and doesn't threaten the future of some smaller clubs

[HTG]

Pretty much like everything else in life, if clubs can't afford to play at a specified level then they should play at the level which suits their budget. 

A pyramid is needed to allow clubs to move up and down in line with capability or ambition. There is absolutely no reason why that should not exist in Scotland. If teams don't want to incur what they see as unnecessary expense then they should play at the level where the travel and standards are aligned to their budget.

It's no wonder we're falling miles behind nations of similar size - we spend so much time protecting the status quo. 

[glensmad]

4 minutes ago, HTG said:

A pyramid is needed to allow clubs to move up and down in line with capability or ambition. There is absolutely no reason why that should not exist in Scotland. If teams don't want to incur what they see as unnecessary expense then they should play at the level where the travel and standards are aligned to their budget.

That's a very fair point. In pre-season we played Shildon AFC at the Kilbirnie tournament, and last season they won the Northern League in England. They were entitled to promotion, but I understand that they knocked back promotion for financial reasons and stayed in the Northern League again.

I'm not sure how that affected the promotion and relegation issue in the English pyramid, whether another team were promoted instead of Shildon or whether a team were spared from relegation, but it does seem that it's not an obstacle in the English pyramid if a team doesn't feel it can financially cope with playing at a higher level.

[The Moonster]

13 hours ago, eamonn said:

Pyramid system a load of cods wallop ! its all fantasy football ! junior football is good its not perfect nothing is . remember this aint England scotland's to small for this nonsense if you want to be in the  pyramid  join the phoney boloney lowdown leauge

 

13 hours ago, hareskirky said:

And many many feel the same as eamonn people like myself.

I don't think either of you understand the concept of a pyramid. See if you and your club are happy playing in the regional leagues like you are now? That's fine, you continue to enjoy sitting getting pished at the side of a cow field at 2pm every Saturday, the rest of us will get on with being ambitious and improving the game. The pyramid is designed for clubs to play at the level they are capable and willing to play. Just because some clubs like being junior teams in regional leagues doesn't mean other clubs should stagnate because of you.

If there is a will, there will be a way of implementing it.  Sadly I think there are too many who hold the views above to let anything meaningful go through.

[wintonfan]

the west region needs a change, the present super 1st is just a relegation battle from start to finish unless you have the mega cash for a quantum leap towards the premier, even a relatively well funded club like the Winton has done the yo-yo and they have the ground infrastructure so can spend on players. I agree with getting rid of the group stages of the league cup as lets be honest they are stale, integrate the the ayrshire and central districts totally, have it 2 up and 2 down. Now I hear the keyboards buzzing, travelling time and costs, in defence I would say that since the super leagues started the road network has improved with the M77, M74 extension, M80 etc etc. Now I reckon the biggest trek will be dunipace to kirkconnel, that is a 90 minute drive without traffic and 2 hours with. 

The issue of lights aka devils lanterns (add any other sarcasm of your choice) will be negated by the scrapping of the sectional stages of the league cups, you could also give full weekends by playing at the september weekend and any other trade holiday. Especially when there is a few in the better months, I would even say scrap the ayrshire cup and its central equivalent, have the fully integrated league, the Scottish Cup, the West of scotland cup and a league cup, all knockouts, no replays, straight to penalties after 90 minutes. 

now thats my views, some say I am talking crap but hey ho

[Burnie_man]

The first step to any reform has to be the abolition of the re-instatment rule, that is the only remaining barrier between Senior and Junior football, it has to go. A player is a player, a club is a club. No need for this money making nonsense in the modern game, the SFA don’t even recognise re-instatement.

The next step is for SJFA clubs to give Tom Johnston and the Executive a clear instruction to engage without any pre-conditions.  During discussions a number of years ago, TJ always claimed his mandate from the clubs in these discussions was based on the SJFA structure remaining intact, ie the SJFA would remain and the three region system would remain, within a Pyramid. That obviously failed and the LL went ahead.

There now has to be open discussions with no pre-conditions, it’s cards on the table time.  Will the LL/HL be open to reform to accommodate Junior clubs, in return for the SJFA to effectively be absorbed into a conglomerate of LL/HL/SJFA blazers, a new body within the SFA (or SPFL) to govern the non-league game.  This would require SFA involvement, but first step is for TJ to convince Regan & Co that the SJFA is serious on reform.

Will any of that happen? Well the first step is in the hands of the clubs, propose abolition of re-instatement and then vote on it at AGM. It’s as simple as that.

Second step is to give TJ clear indication that clubs want to be more open to reform and to engage in the Pyramid, again this is in the power of the clubs to do and can be settled at the AGM by a simple proposal and vote.

Bonnyrigg Rose (and Linlithgow last season), shows that the Juniors have a great deal to offer the whole Scottish game, continued isolation in league terms has no long term future and makes no sense. The SJFA need to start taking steps towards finding an agreeable solution to Pyramid involvement.

[pmk1967]

Pretty much like everything else in life, if clubs can't afford to play at a specified level then they should play at the level which suits their budget. 
A pyramid is needed to allow clubs to move up and down in line with capability or ambition. There is absolutely no reason why that should not exist in Scotland. If teams don't want to incur what they see as unnecessary expense then they should play at the level where the travel and standards are aligned to their budget.
It's no wonder we're falling miles behind nations of similar size - we spend so much time protecting the status quo. 

It's all very well saying clubs find a level at which they play at but as everybody on here knows, as soon as a club reaches the heady heights of the superleague they start throwing stupid money at average players.

You don't have to look to hard to find clubs that have tried this and found themselves in the shit financially a few years down the line.

However what you seem to be proposing is that clubs play a season. Possibly win promotion and then for financial reasons decide they can't go up a division.

Not much point in starting a season then

[marconi]

AFTER  I  BEING INVOLVED IN JUNIORS FOR A WHILE I CAN STATE WITH CONFIDENCE THAT AYRSHIRE TEAMS HAVE  NO INTEREST IN A PYRAMID SYSTEM OF ANY KIND. ALSO WITH REGARD TO THE PROPOSED WEST REGION CHANGES MY ONLY RESERVATION IS WITH THE NUMBER OF TEAMS PROMOTED/RELEGATED

[Burnie_man]

Caps lock on, watch out

[newcastle broon]

1 hour ago, glensmad said:

That's a very fair point. In pre-season we played Shildon AFC at the Kilbirnie tournament, and last season they won the Northern League in England. They were entitled to promotion, but I understand that they knocked back promotion for financial reasons and stayed in the Northern League again.

I'm not sure how that affected the promotion and relegation issue in the English pyramid, whether another team were promoted instead of Shildon or whether a team were spared from relegation, but it does seem that it's not an obstacle in the English pyramid if a team doesn't feel it can financially cope with playing at a higher level.

Money is not always the issue,it's sometimes down to ground criteria.

Northern League clubs have a cut off date a few months into the season whether it is their intention to apply for promotion or not   ?

 The reformed clubs at Darlington1883 and Spennymoor were the last northern league clubs to achieve this and continue to move forward up the pyramid.  

I guess in Scotland it would be how ambitious committees would be without breaking any bank balances ? 

 

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, hareskirky said:

The west region is the beating heart of the junior game and i have faith they reject any notion of this talk.

Fortunately, there are many more Junior clubs than just the West Region, and there are clubs within the West Region who would embrace the Pyramid.

Thankfully attitudes are changing and eventually the dinosaurs will be brushed aside.

[The Moonster]

18 minutes ago, hareskirky said:

Don't patronise me .I know full well.

The west region is the beating heart of the junior game and i have faith they reject any notion of this talk.

You clearly don't. If you want to play in the West Regional league that's fine, but it should be as part of the pyramid. Save your beating heart pish for Valentines Day.

[gonzohiggy]

23 hours ago, edinabear said:

I posted this recently on the LL section of the forum. I realise that many are against any type of proposals to merge with Senior football. If the League Pyramid was set up similarly to the attached would this be more plausible for Juniors to join? There would be at least 2 up and 2 down in each league so it should even out eventually. Would also propose 2 relegation places from League 2. Tin hat firmly on!

 

 

Pyramid restructure.xlsx

Clearly you have put quite a bit of effort and I like a lot of what you have came up with. For me though there is one huge issue as far as integrating the Juniors in to a pyramid goes and that is the setup above non league level ie League 2. The top junior clubs wont want to join that as the drawbacks for getting promoted (travel, reduced crowds, reduced interest, infrastructure upgrades etc) could be perceived to far outweigh the benefits. To implement the pyramid setup and integrate the juniors we would need to make changes at a minimum to League 2 to bring those clubs back in to a regional setup and go with the North / East / West / South divisions you suggest, juniors being further down the pyramid from the League 2 and already established LL clubs. That format would hopefully encourage the juniors to join as it wouldn't be too much different from what they are currently in and the clubs would hopefully then find their levels. Clearly their would be major objection to that from the League 1 and 2 clubs as well as trying to agree how you get promoted to League 1 out of the winners of N/W/E/S but at least it could work.......

[Burnie_man]

A Pyramid is built from the bottom up, we need to integrate the non-league set-up before anyone even thinks about the SPFL.

[KilsythCoyle]

9 hours ago, edinabear said:

I understand your point but is travelling 2hrs 6-7 times a season for a game considered too far and too expensive?

Finances are difficult at all Junior Clubs at our level, and going on experience and rapport with supporters / committee etc it wouldn't be a popular expense for travel / busses etc 

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, KilsythCoyle said:

Finances are difficult at all Junior Clubs at our level, and going on experience and rapport with supporters / committee etc it wouldn't be a popular expense for travel / busses etc 

erm......doesn't Kilsyth Rangers already travel down to Ayrshire in the Super First, Girvan and Irvine? If you win promotion you'll be going to Ayrshire 6/7 times, that wouldn't change very much in a Pyramid so what's the issue with buses???

[KilsythCoyle]

2 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

erm......doesn't Kilsyth Rangers already travel down to Ayrshire in the Super First, Girvan and Irvine? If you win promotion you'll be going to Ayrshire 6/7 times, that wouldn't change very much in a Pyramid so what's the issue with buses???

One of these things guys. The leagues change every season. Irvine and Girvan in our league by no means a major issue, but at the same time far enough to travel in our region. 2 more difficult trips. If we go up, then so be it. It may be a reasonable mix next season with Central and Ayrshire teams.

The likes of Wigtown and Newtown Stewart added to our sections would add a significant amount more travelling. 

You're obviously a supporter of the changes and trying to justify your point. 

An opinion is an opionion, and mine is that I'm only echoing what many others (both within my own club and at others surrounding us) will be thinking. 

We are all entitled to our opinions!!!

[Burnie_man]

But you're using travel as a reason for being against the Pyramid, yet it would not mean anymore travel than you'd normally face now. We both know that Newton Stewart and Wigtown wouldn't both be at the top end of the non league game anyway.

Travel isn't a reason for someone connected at the top end of the Jumior game to be against a Pyramid, it's a red herring.

[cmontheloknow]

The South sides onfield range from Super First-ish to the spread of abilities found at District level. A huge chunk of Wigtown's side (14/15 maybe) have come through the ranks at Stranraer and when I saw them in August v Talbot they were reasonable and good going forward but not at Bot's level.  None of the South sides would hang about for long at the top end.

[8MileBU]

I reckon in ten years this 'for-pyramid/against-pyramid' debate will still be raging on and nothing will have changed. For the majority of clubs in the juniors there's as many pros as there is cons with regards to the pyramid system so it just drags on and on.