Old Firm Colts in L2

[Doonhamer doon south]

2 minutes ago, A Believer said:

Whether you are for or against inclusion of u-20's teams, you should at least try your best not to pass comment about something you clearly know f-all about. Of course 20's players tick the yes-box of all of your ridiculous analogies; as much if not more than some 1st team 'pro's' in my experience.
I'm not for or against; but the poor conversion rate of 20's to 1st team means something must change.

Yeah I have re read what I put and not entirely got across what i meant. Yes any colt player would likely give his all in a game but i was intent on saying that he is more playing to impress for himself and earn a contract for the premiership first team or earn a move to a higher league than L2. Also the colt players aren't really playing for the pride of their club badge or manager (if they lose its not going to cost anyone their job, its not going to drive the fans away). They aren't chasing down a ball going out of play, winning a tackle or any other analogy, that gets the crowd on their side. 

 

We have Stephen Dobbie in our team for his second spell. He said he would return to the club and did. Every goal he scores home or away he pats the badge and salutes the fans. Its not just his skill its his commitment to the club. 

 

I just think that would be missing for the colts players or a colts team. The passion. The glory of winning, the heartache of losing. It just wouldn't be the same. There maybe but not the same.

[A Believer]

Yeah I have re read what I put and not entirely got across what i meant. Yes any colt player would likely give his all in a game but i was intent on saying that he is more playing to impress for himself and earn a contract for the premiership first team or earn a move to a higher league than L2. Also the colt players aren't really playing for the pride of their club badge or manager (if they lose its not going to cost anyone their job, its not going to drive the fans away). They aren't chasing down a ball going out of play, winning a tackle or any other analogy, that gets the crowd on their side. 
 
We have Stephen Dobbie in our team for his second spell. He said he would return to the club and did. Every goal he scores home or away he pats the badge and salutes the fans. Its not just his skill its his commitment to the club. 
 
I just think that would be missing for the colts players or a colts team. The passion. The glory of winning, the heartache of losing. It just wouldn't be the same. There maybe but not the same.

Y'know, your ideals truly resonate. I really wish Development football really was about development; I remember Johan Cruyff saying he played an attacking player at fullback to develop his defensive skills, to the detriment of the team result. I'm just not sure these motivations exist.
I hate to say, maybe cynically, I think the number of players playing for the love of the club is a low percentage: and almost non-existent as you go up divisions. I've just watched Jason Cummings and Kenny Miller exchanging passes; ironically the exception and the rule [emoji4]
Players like Dobbie and our Stevie Notman are exceptional and should be admired in a game where, for me, self-interest is a core motivation for more than u-20's. But back to how the SPFL can increase the number of 20's progression into 1st teams.

[Loonytoons]

Whether you are for or against inclusion of u-20's teams, you should at least try your best not to pass comment about something you clearly know f-all about. Of course 20's players tick the yes-box of all of your ridiculous analogies; as much if not more than some 1st team 'pro's' in my experience.
I'm not for or against; but the poor conversion rate of 20's to 1st team means something must change.

I previously posted as to the numbers that break through. Less than 10% is totally expected. There are, at any given time, way less than 10% of players dropping out of the game.
Where do you propose for these players to actually convert in to?

[A Believer]

I previously posted as to the numbers that break through. Less than 10% is totally expected. There are, at any given time, way less than 10% of players dropping out of the game.
Where do you propose for these players to actually convert in to?

Fair question, IMHO the ideal model is where good young Scottish players progressing from u-20's, who are better than existing 1st team players, replace them. Ideal state, is where more than 10% (or more) do that.
Would you agree that would perhaps be good for Scottish football?

[Loonytoons]

Of course that's the ideal model. Very few are better than those already playing though. You are expecting inexperienced, often physically weaker youngsters to bump guys that managers know can do a job.

[Bazil85]

On 2/17/2018 at 10:21, wastecoatwilly said:

 

I think getting the right price for this level of football is important,double in price from lowland to league 2 is a bit steep for me.
lowland league £6
league 2 £9-£10
league 1 £13-£14
championship £17-£18

How much would you charge fans of Scottish Premier teams when they know exactly who the winners of the competition will be before a ball is kicked? Surely less.

[Tulloch Gorum]

Anyone who thinks that the mere fact of having two teams on the park means the game is going to be played in a properly competitive way because of "animal instincts" has clearly never watched a pre-season friendly or any other kind of training match.  Sure, people will want to score goals and win tackles, but it's nothing like a proper match.  That's why such games are usually reduced in price (unless it's a big glamour friendly against the likes of Barcelona or something): because nobody really wants to watch those games, because they're not interesting to watch. 

[clyde_r_us]

On 17/02/2018 at 11:48, wastecoatwilly said:

I would say last nights crowd was about 100-130 mostly family members,some fans from each club,talking to a gala fan he stays in glenrothes bit weird,people go to games for all different reasons.

Would that include weird people who go to games to spout vile songs in all directions

[Bazil85]

On 2/17/2018 at 11:55, wastecoatwilly said:

I don't see the colts not wanting to win any less or more than the league 2 teams,even if you are playing a five-a-side game you want to win it's the nature of animal instincts. 

That is just baffling, the Colts will be geared towards youth development and don't things that will help them progress as footballers. Sometimes teams at that level have to win ugly, they won't do that in any games. Won't see any high balls and there will be no consequences to the Colts losing. For the players in other teams it could be the difference between being a footballer the following season or not being. 

[A Believer]

That is just baffling, the Colts will be geared towards youth development and don't things that will help them progress as footballers. Sometimes teams at that level have to win ugly, they won't do that in any games. Won't see any high balls and there will be no consequences to the Colts losing. For the players in other teams it could be the difference between being a footballer the following season or not being. 

I don't see it as baffling at at all. The fact that you say the colts 'will be' geared towards youth development suggests you're assuming. I was at a u-20's friendly with a junior club; one of them was sent off and both sides had to be spoke to about calming down!

I honestly don't see lack of competitive spirit being a factor; also every 20 is fighting to keep his place and catch the eye of the 1st team coaches. I'm kinda baffled why people think it's powder-puff. Any player not 100% on-it, doesn't last. These ARE the consequences.

Ok, most are not fully physically developed, but playing against seasoned seniors is good; as all our 20's do at their loan clubs.

 

So how can we further improve their physical and game development to increase conversion to 1st team? Again, don't start with 'not'; start with 'we could'

[wastecoatwilly]

1 hour ago, Bazil85 said:

That is just baffling, the Colts will be geared towards youth development and don't things that will help them progress as footballers. Sometimes teams at that level have to win ugly, they won't do that in any games. Won't see any high balls and there will be no consequences to the Colts losing. For the players in other teams it could be the difference between being a footballer the following season or not being. 

This works both ways,colt players need to develop a winning menality as well as league 2 players,if they dont make the grade they will get binned tae its a tough education.

[strichener]

3 minutes ago, A Believer said:

I don't see it as baffling at at all. The fact that you say the colts 'will be' geared towards youth development suggests you're assuming. I was at a u-20's friendly with a junior club; one of them was sent off and both sides had to be spoke to about calming down!
I honestly don't see lack of competitive spirit being a factor; also every 20 is fighting to keep his place and catch the eye of the 1st team coaches. I'm kinda baffled why people think it's powder-puff. Any player not 100% on-it, doesn't last. These ARE the consequences.
Ok, most are not fully physically developed, but playing against seasoned seniors is good; as all our 20's do at their loan clubs.

So how can we further improve their physical and game development to increase conversion to 1st team? Again, don't stray with 'not'; start with 'we could'

We could makes sure that these players are competing against others that have the same aims.  Maybe put all these 2nd stringers into teams that could play in a "Reserve" league or similar.  What you don't do is scrap a reserve league because it was too expensive and then provide two clubs with a mechanism that is not available to all.  If the leagues and SFA are really for improving the youths coming through the system then finance it centrally.  Reduce the prize money in the Premiership by 20% and directly fund the reserves.

[Loonytoons]

This works both ways,colt players need to develop a winning menality as well as league 2 players,if they dont make the grade they will get binned tae its a tough education.

More clichés.

We should maybe have a game of two halves, with teams who like to play football, players who know where the goal is and give 110%.

[wastecoatwilly]

1 hour ago, strichener said:

We could makes sure that these players are competing against others that have the same aims.  Maybe put all these 2nd stringers into teams that could play in a "Reserve" league or similar.  What you don't do is scrap a reserve league because it was too expensive and then provide two clubs with a mechanism that is not available to all.  If the leagues and SFA are really for improving the youths coming through the system then finance it centrally.  Reduce the prize money in the Premiership by 20% and directly fund the reserves.

For every over age player playing in the colt team,one less development player misses out its been tried and doesnt work.

[Loonytoons]

For every over age player playing in the colt team,one less development player misses out its been tried and doesnt work.

Colt teams without overage players in the Challenge Cup have been tried and it doesn't work.

[1320Lichtie]

For every over age player playing in the colt team,one less development player misses out its been tried and doesnt work.

You’ve still not answered.

WOULD CELTIC PARK GET CLOSE TO SELLING OUT IF CELTIC WERE PUT INTO A EUROPEAN COMPETITION WITH BARCELONA’S AND OTHER BIGGER CLUBS B TEAMS AND WOULD ANY CELTIC FAN HAVE THE SLIGHTEST BIT OF INTEREST IN IT?

Would it not devalue European competition for you and completely ruin it????

[PELE]

I remember watching the 1988 reserve league cup final between Hearts and Dundee United. The United team was mostly youngsters and Walter Kidd was upto every dirty trick in the book trying to put them off. Dragging his studs down the back of the young strikers calf muscle when the ref was not looking etc.

[strichener]

5 hours ago, wastecoatwilly said:

For every over age player playing in the colt team,one less development player misses out its been tried and doesnt work.

You obviously don't follow your colt's team then. 

I can only assume that the change from U20s to allowing over-age players this year was to try and make the Colt teams more competitive with very limited success.  Of course if this was solely about the development of players then I would have expected your Youth team coach to be as vocal about this change as he was about the Colts in league 2.  Any chance of getting a quote where this view was expressed?

[A Believer]

You obviously don't follow your colt's team then. 
I can only assume that the change from U20s to allowing over-age players this year was to try and make the Colt teams more competitive with very limited success.  Of course if this was solely about the development of players then I would have expected your Youth team coach to be as vocal about this change as he was about the Colts in league 2.  Any chance of getting a quote where this view was expressed?

I think allowing limited number of over-age players has been sensible; allows 20's to learn from 1st team players and to help 1st team players to get match-fit after injury.
GK's in particular; no.2 keeper gets NO competitive game time, unless he plays the odd game with 20's. Tough on 20's keepers, but right for the club.
Also, why would clubs have 1 or 2 u-20's keepers, invest all that time and effort, then cast them adrift if they can't supplant the existing no.2 when become too old for 20's. Unless fairly exceptional, keepers don't mature to a level they are truly competitive at senior football until they are mid 20's; if technically good enough, keep them on and allow them to play over-age and allow physical and game-sense development.

[strichener]

1 minute ago, A Believer said:

I think allowing limited number of over-age players has been sensible; allows 20's to learn from 1st team players and to help 1st team players to get match-fit after injury.
GK's in particular; no.2 keeper gets NO competitive game time, unless he plays the odd game with 20's. Tough on 20's keepers, but right for the club.
Also, why would clubs have 1 or 2 u-20's keepers, invest all that time and effort, then cast them adrift if they can't supplant the existing no.2 when become too old for 20's. Unless fairly exceptional, keepers don't mature to a level they are truly competitive at senior football until they are mid 20's; if technically good enough, keep them on and allow them to play over-age and allow physical and game-sense development.

I don't disagree with any of this....provided it happens outside of existing League setup.