Old Firm Colts in L2

[Am Featha Taigh Nan Clach]

 

No doubt Stenny will support this because they are the absolute worst.

 

I share your concern.

 

Edit - If we were to vote for this, I won't be back at Ochilview in the near future

 

[JakeSAFC]

No doubt Stenny will support this because they are the absolute worst.

Could also see Alloa supporting this.

Id like to think we'd vote against it, considering we are fan owned and the vast majority of our support are against it.

[Am Featha Taigh Nan Clach]

I've actually just re-read the initial statement we posted on the official site regarding The Rangers. It's sickening.

 

 

[Bazil85]

This seems to get banded about as if its important.  Maybe it is for Scotland, the point of our clubs though is not to service a national football team.  

International football is every bit as important as club football to me. I feel Scottish clubs, the SFA and spfl have a duty to deliver a strong national team. Generally speaking the stronger the club level is and better the country is at producing young talent the better the national team is.

[the jambo-rocker]

The SPFL already has a development loan system in place where kids can be loaned to teams and are still eligble for their respective u20's sides. I don't how this hasn't been talked up more. They're getting the chance to get first team experience and then apply it in u20 matches under systems that the team collective will be familiar with.

I'm still amazed at how little awareness there is of this and should be shoved down the colt panderers throats. The players out on development loans are arguably getting more first team gametime outside the parent club's first team than ever before.

[Brazilianlex]

22 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

As I said a year ago re thus the only way to get it through would be by a sweetener - bullying doesn't win votes. The interesting point surely is that SpFL clubs if asked to vote on proposal say no - I assume that Lowland League could maybe have their own vote to admit at that level only) albeit not familiar with their rules) - they couldn't though get promotion via the play off

The sweetener will be that selected clubs will become the home grounds of the Colt teams thus increasing their income. Those with Astro pitches will likely be the targets of the premier clubs and those chairman will jump at the opportunity.

i still havnt seen anything about Colt teams being scots only. There might be legal reasons but surely it's just a matter of the big clubs making that commitment without it being a rule. After all, the whole reason for this is because it's for the good of the Scottish international game isn't it ??? 

[Moonglum25]

10 hours ago, Am Featha *****h Nan Clach said:

 

I share your concern.

Edit - If we were to vote for this, I won't be back at Ochilview in the near future

 

I intend raising this issue at the AGM on Monday night to try and ascertain the Board's position. If they are for it and it goes through I will not be back either.

[Bazil85]

I intend raising this issue at the AGM on Monday night to try and ascertain the Board's position. If they are for it and it goes through I will not be back either.

Have Stenhousmuir got a history of backing stuff like this?

[haufdaft]

International football is every bit as important as club football to me.

Is it important enough for you to pay to watch up to 40% of your league matches against U20s?

[Sergeant Wilson]

11 hours ago, Bazil85 said:

 

International football is every bit as important as club football to me. I feel Scottish clubs, the SFA and spfl have a duty to deliver a strong national team. Generally speaking the stronger the club level is and better the country is at producing young talent the better the national team is.

 

Do you seriously believe that the intention is to improve internationally? The single reason is to "improve" the parent club. I would consider it only  if they entered in a newly constructed pyramid that included a West/East LL League structure. I would impose a few caveats relating to finance, grounds and player pools. Even then, I'd probably still give their games a miss.

[Ivo den Bieman]

anyone who thinks the "national team" will improve as a result of glorified old firm youth teams being admitted to League Two / LL is a walloper and lost cause who genuinely knows f**k about how football works on and off the park. Unfortunately, quite a few people in this moronic subset appear to be in powerful positions in the game.

The standard of football on offer at league two / lowland league level is precisely f**k all to do with the quality of the national team. It genuinely staggers me that people think otherwise. It's like being diagnosed with throat cancer and having a pedicure as a means of curing it.

If people are serious about improving the national team and the stream of players coming through to compete for places in it, then look at coaching education and structures, bring back the reserve leagues, and learn lessons from the corrupt SPL experiment whose introduction strangely coincidied with the national team's nosedive. That wouldn't be anything at all to do with prioritising greed, money and short term success by any means necessary over everything else, would it? It's been obvious for many years that U-20 football is not doing the business yet too much money and too many egos were invested in it. We had Aberdeen's highly-rated U-20 captain come to us six or seven years ago, and the guy was terrible; totally out of his depth in League Two and last seen struggling to hold down a place in a Lowland League side. What on earth are squads full of young guys like that going to bring to the table in a league competition?

Honestly, what more help do The The Rangers and Celtic need? Even if Celtic re-appointed Ronnie Deila it would take other teams up to a decade to catch them up at their current level. Zombie Rangers aren't what they once were, but still light years ahead of most other clubs.

These proposals are symptomatic of a SFA / SPFL leadership that not only knows nothing about lower league football but actively holds it in contempt. It's the imposition of a "vision" which looks good on a spreadsheet but which unfortunately fails to take account of sporting and cultural realities.

In the 1970s the Scotland team had guys play in the top English sides of the time and competition for places was credible and fierce from the old firm plus the Edinburgh sides, Dundee United and Aberdeen. Are we really saying that our lads will get back to that level by starting their careers playing against the Terry Massons and Rory McAllisters of this world? Really?

The reality is that the best young players are now identified between the ages of 7-12 and are signed up by the biggest clubs to develop through their youth system. The dismal failure in conversion rate from promising youngester to first team Premier League footballer and possible future international is absolutely nothing to do with the likes of Montrose, Berwick and Cowdenbeath. It's to do with pisspoor coaching, a pisspoor youth infrastructure and self-congratulatory Largs smugness at being pretty mediocre. How about tackling those problems head on?

This proposal is the worst kind of SFA / SFL do-something syndrome. Rather than address the causes and effects of the failure of our youth development properly, shaft the wee clubs, so we can all be seen to do something. Unlike the SPL failure, this shit can't be undone once it is introduced.

If clubs roll over and accept this then they will deserve everything that will come their way as a result, in terms of dwindling crowds, devalued competition and apathy.

Edited June 24, 2017 by Ivo den Bieman

[LongTimeLurker]

On 2017/06/19 at 22:10, dee_62 said:

I just can't see the colts sides progressing very far if they have to keep 9 u21s playing every week...

They might even struggle in the Lowland League. If it was U23 as is normal on the continent there would be more for L1 and L2 clubs to be upset about.

[Sergeant Wilson]

13 minutes ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

anyone who thinks the "national team" will improve as a result of glorified old firm youth teams being admitted to League Two / LL is a walloper and lost cause who genuinely knows f**k about how football works on and off the park. Unfortunately, quite a few people in this moronic subset appear to be in powerful positions in the game.

The standard of football on offer at league two / lowland league level is precisely f**k all to do with the quality of the national team. It genuinely staggers me that people think otherwise. It's like being diagnosed with throat cancer and having a pedicure as a means of curing it.

If people are serious about improving the national team and the stream of players coming through to compete for places in it, then look at coaching education and structures, bring back the reserve leagues, and learn lessons from the corrupt SPL experiment whose introduction strangely coincidied with the national team's nosedive. That wouldn't be anything at all to do with prioritising greed, money and short term success by any means necessary over everything else, would it? It's been obvious for many years that U-20 football is not doing the business yet too much money and too many egos were invested in it. We had Aberdeen's highly-rated U-20 captain come to us six or seven years ago, and the guy was terrible; totally out of his depth in League Two and last seen struggling to hold down a place in a Lowland League side. What on earth are squads full of young guys like that going to bring to the table in a league competition?

Honestly, what more help do The The Rangers and Celtic need? Even if Celtic re-appointed Ronnie Deila it would take other teams up to a decade to catch them up at their current level. Zombie Rangers aren't what they once were, but still light years ahead of most other clubs.

These proposals are symptomatic of a SFA / SPFL leadership that not only knows nothing about lower league football but actively holds it in contempt. It's the imposition of a "vision" which looks good on a spreadsheet but which unfortunately fails to take account of sporting and cultural realities.

In the 1970s the Scotland team had guys play in the top English sides of the time and competition for places was credible and fierce from the old firm plus the Edinburgh sides, Dundee United and Aberdeen. Are we really saying that our lads will get back to that level by starting their careers playing against the Terry Massons and Rory McAllisters of this world? Really?

The reality is that the best young players are now identified between the ages of 7-12 and are signed up by the biggest clubs to develop through their youth system. The dismal failure in conversion rate from promising youngester to first team Premier League footballer and possible future international is absolutely nothing to do with the likes of Montrose, Berwick and Cowdenbeath. It's to do with pisspoor coaching, a pisspoor youth infrastructure and self-congratulatory Largs smugness at being pretty mediocre. How about tackling those problems head on?

This proposal is the worst kind of SFA / SFL do-something syndrome. Rather than address the causes and effects of the failure of our youth development properly, shaft the wee clubs, so we can all be seen to do something. Unlike the SPL failure, this shit can't be undone once it is introduced.

If clubs roll over and accept this then they will deserve everything that will come their way as a result, in terms of dwindling crowds, devalued competition and apathy.

Aye, but they do it in Spain and Germany and they're good.

[Ivo den Bieman]

yeah, that's about as sophisticated as the argument for including them gets.

 

[1320Lichtie]

They might even struggle in the Lowland League. If it was U23 as is normal on the continent there would be more for L1 and L2 clubs to be upset about.

We're not upset because of the age group. Why do you find this so difficult. It could be under 14s or no age limit nobody would care.

[Judge]

Voted against this in questionnaire I received. Ridiculous idea.

[Sergeant Wilson]

Just now, Ivo den Bieman said:

yeah, that's about as sophisticated as the argument for including them gets.

 

You're forgetting the belief, obviously held at Hampden, that we all really support a big team and will be thrilled to have  them visit the hovels we inhabit.

[Ivo den Bieman]

I suspect they'll back off this time, but the idea will keep hanging around like a sprouty fart after Christmas dinner. Clearly some powerful interests in Scottish football will keep trying to force it through.

Think the other thing that has to be offered by us opponents of this is- what's your alternative? This would require a complete re-design of the pyramid to include the juniors and a proper regional structure below the LL / HL.

Maybe our great-great grandchildren might live long enough to see it.

[peternapper]

Quote

 

Was at a supporters club meeting today & was surprized to find around 90% of folk at it had not heard anything about this. Personally am dead against the idea of some clubs having more than one team in the league structure & will try to contact someone at the club to find out if as a club we will be for or against it. If the club decided to vote in favour of it I really do think I would probably stop going & possibly follow a local junior team instead as league football would have no creditability involving reserve sides rather than clubs that have held league places for probably in the main for nearly 100 years.

[BFTD]

4 hours ago, peternapper said:

Was at a supporters club meeting today & was surprized to find around 90% of folk at it had not heard anything about this.

Not even remotely surprised.

Outside of forums like this and the Rangers/Celtic comics, where would anyone have heard about it? The authorities and clubs will be hoping they can make their decision, one way or the other, with as little involvement from the fans as possible.