Birmingham Prison Riot

[NotThePars]

16 hours ago, pandarilla said:

 

Yeah I know.

We have to find a way to campaign mire effectively for solutions - rather than snipe at each other in different jobs / industries.

 

 

See the predictable reaction to striking transport workers down south. Someone getting loads of attention for a sob story over his kid not getting read a bedtime story because of those disgusting strikers. 

[Theo Snelders]

1 minute ago, hk blues said:

 

Easy enough to answer that first question. I never had an issue with my rights so that wasn't a battle I needed to fight.

The Brexit issue. That surely comes from people who perceived they were standing up for their rights?

I'll guess you're going to say the private sector was better.

I'm not looking to turn this into a full-scale debate because I fully appreciate there are things wrong in the public sector but let's also not forget similar wrongs have happened in the private sector as well - employees losing their jobs and discovering their pensions were going to be discounted due to funding issues- think BHS as a very recent example (admittedly the BHS one may not now happen but that's due to them having a wealthy ex-owner willing to pick up the tab - doesn't happen often).

Well, you guess wrong. What do you think about taking in an old (and wealthy) lady in when there's no bed for her? That was done since there was another lady dying and wouldn't last the night. She died in the early hours and after a quick clean up we finally got the other lady to bed. That's what I have seen in the private sector and it's a convayor belt. Things might have changed now but that's a snippet of experience from when I worked in the private sector. No dignity, money is king.

As far as I'm aware, Phillip Green hasn't handed over that cash yet- will he ever? As previously noted, this shouldn't be a race to the bottom at all. There needs to be better working rights in the private sector and the public sector needs to keep theirs. It's good that you didn't have problems with rights- but many people do. Not completely sure what you mean about the Brexit outcome?

[hk blues]

It's an incredibly stupid point to look at the private and public sector as if they were the same thing.
Because it's not about cutting cloth to suit prevailing market conditions. Cuts to the public sector through austerity are ideologically driven. There is no economic need for what is happening to happen.
People working in the public sector complain loudest not just because they are directly affected but because every day they can see the effect this has on public services we all rely on.
There is an inherent element of risk in any private venture, that's how capitalism works. The reason we have public sector services is that their functions are deemed to be sufficiently socially important that they need to be protected from that risk.
Unfortunately less and less is seen that way to the point now where things like running prisons or care for the elderly or adult with complex needs are seen as areas where the swings and roundabouts of capitalism are acceptable.

I must admit that whenever anyone begins a point with a statement that someone is incredibly stupid to x, y and z it's kinda hard to read what's coming next with any degree of objectivity. Particularly when it wasn't suggested x,y and z were the same thing. Anyway, I gave it a go.

I agree with much of what you say, not all but certainly a significant amount. However, that's irrelevant to the point I was making. Whatever opinion we may have on the importance of the public sector the simple fact remains that it has to be funded. It's naive to assume that it's a given that sufficient funding must be provided to ensure public sector services are delivered to a particular standard that the public expect. I'm pretty sure we all wish that wasn't the case but it is.

[invergowrie arab]

2 hours ago, hk blues said:

 

 It's naive to assume that it's a given that sufficient funding must be provided to ensure public sector services are delivered to a particular standard that the public expect. I'm pretty sure we all wish that wasn't the case but it is.
 

 

No it's not.

That's literally the point of public services.

The fact that isn't happening now is because of ideological choices made my the current govt not because to do so is some utopian flight of fancy.

[ICTChris]

I worked in the NHS as an administrator when I first moved to Edinburgh and I was a studen. The inefficiency and uselessness was pretty staggering. One of the jobs I was given was manually typing staff timesheets into the HR system, utterly bizarre. The IT side of it was absolutely horrific - lots of odd decisions and poor management of staff and contracts.

Working in large private organisations isn't that different though, particularly in the financial sector. The regulations and governance (a dreadful word) are an endeavour in themselves. When I worked for a large bank it was kind of what I imagine working in the Soviet Union was like, myriad departments that you'd never heard of telling you you couldn't do things, managers engaged in bullshit political fights.

Anyone who works in the public sector will have examples about 'public sector-itis' but I think generally large, established organisations have problems with reacting to change and adapting to changing conditions, no matter what sector they are in. Difficult question is how you change monolithic organisations.

[Sergeant Wilson]

Just now, ICTChris said:

I worked in the NHS as an administrator when I first moved to Edinburgh and I was a studen. The inefficiency and uselessness was pretty staggering. One of the jobs I was given was manually typing staff timesheets into the HR system, utterly bizarre. The IT side of it was absolutely horrific - lots of odd decisions and poor management of staff and contracts.

Working in large private organisations isn't that different though, particularly in the financial sector. The regulations and governance (a dreadful word) are an endeavour in themselves. When I worked for a large bank it was kind of what I imagine working in the Soviet Union was like, myriad departments that you'd never heard of telling you you couldn't do things, managers engaged in bullshit political fights.

Anyone who works in the public sector will have examples about 'public sector-itis' but I think generally large, established organisations have problems with reacting to change and adapting to changing conditions, no matter what sector they are in. Difficult question is how you change monolithic organisations.











 

A big difference I noticed between public and private sector is how each reacts to a f**k up. Private will sweep it under the carpet and move on to the next disaster, giving the impression of speed. Public will pore over the consequences of their catastrophe, until the next one bites their arse.

[hk blues]

No it's not.
That's literally the point of public services.
The fact that isn't happening now is because of ideological choices made my the current govt not because to do so is some utopian flight of fancy.

I don't agree that the point of public services is to provide services to a level that the public is happy with. That's unrealistic in my opinion. I'm of the opinion that the service level must meet a minimum standard and if the financial climate allows then that minimum standard can be enhanced.

Regardless, you cannot simply exclude the prevailing economic climate from the level of service provided. That would be ideological.

[invergowrie arab]

5 hours ago, hk blues said:

 

I don't agree that the point of public services is to provide services to a level that the public is happy with. That's unrealistic in my opinion. I'm of the opinion that the service level must meet a minimum standard and if the financial climate allows then that minimum standard can be enhanced.

Regardless, you cannot simply exclude the prevailing economic climate from the level of service provided. That would be ideological.

 

OK my last go on this.

Of course it's ideological. That's what politics is.

As a society we can easily afford to invest more into public services. Not doing so is not because of economic constraints. It is a choice. 

[Jacksgranda]

On ‎18‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 02:28, Marshmallo said:

For those keeping score the police have called me an idiot, a moron, and a person who "doesn't have a clue" on this thread. I have offered no abuse. Pretty consistent with the standard we've come to expect.

If he hasn't called you a vile, sectarian bigot he's obviously not pccabe.

I'll just have to keep looking.

[Jacksgranda]

18 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

A big difference I noticed between public and private sector is how each reacts to a f**k up. Private will sweep it under the carpet and move on to the next disaster, giving the impression of speed. Public will pore over the consequences of learn lessons from their catastrophe, until the next a different one bites their arse.

There

[hk blues]

OK my last go on this.
Of course it's ideological. That's what politics is.
As a society we can easily afford to invest more into public services. Not doing so is not because of economic constraints. It is a choice. 

For all our sakes I hope you're right and I'm wrong - a change in government is easier to achieve than a change in the economy

[energyzone]

For those keeping score the police have called me an idiot, a moron, and a person who "doesn't have a clue" on this thread. I have offered no abuse. Pretty consistent with the standard we've come to expect.

"The police" have done no such thing.

You sound like one of those full time mummies on Facebook.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

That's Swaleside having problems as well, added to two serious staff assaults at Doncaster today. Merry fucking Christmas. Looks like loads of unwanted overtime coming our way this festive season...

Wish they'd get these new graduates in to sort it all out.

[Bully Wee Villa]

Wish the rest of the country would stop copying us.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

Lowdham Grange losing control now...

Merry fucking Christmas.

Eta, looks like it was sorted by shoving a load out on the Magic Roundabout. Good luck to all receiving establishments.

[Theo Snelders]

5 hours ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

Lowdham Grange losing control now...

Merry fucking Christmas.

Eta, looks like it was sorted by shoving a load out on the Magic Roundabout. Good luck to all receiving establishments.

It's a shite state of affairs. There'll be uproar when there's an eventual loss of life- and that's a real risk- totally ignoring the skyrocketing suicide rates already.

I laughed when Liz Truss stated that it's been deteriorating for a long time, it will take time to sort out. Yeah- since about 2010 you absolute arse. Spot the link.

Hope you are able to rest over the festive holiday- not likely though.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

It's a shite state of affairs. There'll be uproar when there's an eventual loss of life- and that's a real risk- totally ignoring the skyrocketing suicide rates already.
I laughed when Liz Truss stated that it's been deteriorating for a long time, it will take time to sort out. Yeah- since about 2010 you absolute arse. Spot the link.
Hope you are able to rest over the festive holiday- not likely though.

In fairness, i can't say I remember any year it's got better since I joined in 97. We had a bunch of Tories in charge then as well, mind.

As for time off, I'm detailed rest days today and tomorrow (fifth Christmas off since I joined), but I'll be loath to answer the phone for the next couple of days...

[Theo Snelders]

1 hour ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

In fairness, i can't say I remember any year it's got better since I joined in 97. We had a bunch of Tories in charge then as well, mind.

As for time off, I'm detailed rest days today and tomorrow (fifth Christmas off since I joined), but I'll be loath to answer the phone for the next couple of days...

Fair point, and you're in a better position to know than I am. Has there been a worse year since then though?

Suppose I notice things like waiting an age to be escorted through/around the wings or to healthcare, seeing the minimal POs around, or having to interview individuals through the hatch as there aren't enough POs to remove them from lockdown.

Hope you don't get that call- you just know someone, somewhere will be thinking "Christmas day, great time to kick off". Hopefully not.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

3 hours ago, Theo Snelders said:

Fair point, and you're in a better position to know than I am. Has there been a worse year since then though?

Suppose I notice things like waiting an age to be escorted through/around the wings or to healthcare, seeing the minimal POs around, or having to interview individuals through the hatch as there aren't enough POs to remove them from lockdown.

Hope you don't get that call- you just know someone, somewhere will be thinking "Christmas day, great time to kick off". Hopefully not.

In all honesty, it's been a gradual decline in standards in the service since I joined - not that I think I'm part of the problem! It's only now that the vicious circle of low paid, poorly trained staff and increasing violence has reached the stage where, from 1700 recruits this year, only 500 remain employed by NOMS - would you take the risks frontline officers do for 17k* a year? Because I certainly wouldn't! Now that the customers are putting their wee riot videos on facebook (try slapping a D Notice on that!) the media are belatedly taking an interest, but I can't see it doing much for recruitment!

Every year since I joined, the budget has been cut with the Director General of the Service or, latterly, the CEO of NOMS telling the Ministry, "of course we can do more for less - never mind the continually rising population."

Talking to a POA colleague recently, who represents a HS Establishment, he told me his nick had recently employed, in their latest intake, four eighteen year old female Officers. This in a jail where the prisoners must be over 21, in part for their own safety. Surprisingly, none of these girls lasted a week on the landings, one of them walking out partway through her first shift. They'd all had 50k spent on training them, mind...

This year has certainly been the worst for disorder I can remember since Full Sutton went up in 1997, but I can just hear the sound of many, many chickens coming home to roost. Whatever the solution is, it's going to cost a boatload of money - and the CJ system isn't sexy when politicians are trumpeting new initiatives. I only hope there is a will to make my job, and that of my brothers and sisters nationwide, safer before one of us dies. Already, the rate of murders inside is through the roof - as is suicide. We don't have the resources - by which I mean time in our working day, as well as boots on the landing - to do our job of protecting and attempting to rehabilitate these people. They are reacting in the only way they know how. 

* Plus 16% amelioration to make up for working Bank and Public holidays, unsocial hours and Nights. Twenty grand! Woohoo! And it goes up to 24.5k if you can last three years!

 

[Theo Snelders]

6 hours ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

In all honesty, it's been a gradual decline in standards in the service since I joined - not that I think I'm part of the problem! It's only now that the vicious circle of low paid, poorly trained staff and increasing violence has reached the stage where, from 1700 recruits this year, only 500 remain employed by NOMS - would you take the risks frontline officers do for 17k* a year? Because I certainly wouldn't! Now that the customers are putting their wee riot videos on facebook (try slapping a D Notice on that!) the media are belatedly taking an interest, but I can't see it doing much for recruitment!

Every year since I joined, the budget has been cut with the Director General of the Service or, latterly, the CEO of NOMS telling the Ministry, "of course we can do more for less - never mind the continually rising population."

Talking to a POA colleague recently, who represents a HS Establishment, he told me his nick had recently employed, in their latest intake, four eighteen year old female Officers. This in a jail where the prisoners must be over 21, in part for their own safety. Surprisingly, none of these girls lasted a week on the landings, one of them walking out partway through her first shift. They'd all had 50k spent on training them, mind...

This year has certainly been the worst for disorder I can remember since Full Sutton went up in 1997, but I can just hear the sound of many, many chickens coming home to roost. Whatever the solution is, it's going to cost a boatload of money - and the CJ system isn't sexy when politicians are trumpeting new initiatives. I only hope there is a will to make my job, and that of my brothers and sisters nationwide, safer before one of us dies. Already, the rate of murders inside is through the roof - as is suicide. We don't have the resources - by which I mean time in our working day, as well as boots on the landing - to do our job of protecting and attempting to rehabilitate these people. They are reacting in the only way they know how. 

* Plus 16% amelioration to make up for working Bank and Public holidays, unsocial hours and Nights. Twenty grand! Woohoo! And it goes up to 24.5k if you can last three years!

 

Thanks for the reply and clarity as to what's going on, I've no reply to that- sounds bad.

I had no idea about increasing murders, only knew about the one at Pentonville. I do know about the suicide rates- they are horrendous.

I can relate to your words about not being able to spend time with people and not enough of you around, same here. How are we meant to rehabilitate people when they cannot access these opportunities? It seems like prisons have become a hot bed of brutilisation. As you say- it's not sexy to promote rehab for prisoners, yet this is exactly what prison is supposed to provide. I advocate the approach in Norway (very low recedivism) can you ever think the media and public would buy that here?