Kris Boyd & Jamie Fullarton

[Malcolm Malcolm]

3 minutes ago, Diamonds are Forever said:

 

Exactly, a guy who has been on the bookies shortlist for every Scottish job in the last 5 years, but can't get a job. People would rather take a total stab in the dark on people like Richie Foran, Jack Ross, Mark Wilson, Martin Canning etc etc who appear to have fresh ideas and be a bit more modern, because I think clubs realise that they need to move with the times. Obviously the mistake these clubs make is that the majority of these guys, whilst they may be younger and talk a good game, still came through the 'old' system with old school managers so probably still have the same ideas deep down as the likes of Calderwood and Jim Jefferies had. Kris Boyd's comments probably just highlight this.

Basically, I don't think the clubs themselves have out-dated 'dinosaur' attitudes, they recognise the need to modernise and move away from methods of the past, the problem is the managerial and coaching market that most of them shop in is just full of guys brought up through that system, so whilst the clubs mean well you probably aren't going to get that change. Which is perhaps where Hearts are different, going for a guy who hasn't been exposed to that dressing room environment for 20 years.

Great post.

[blastie_12]

 

What full-time Scottish club has a 'dinosaur' in charge of them at the moment? Out of 20 of them, Motherwell probably, Duffy maybe fits that stereotype but he's done a superb job at Morton so can hardly criticise him for that.It's a complete myth that Scottish management jobs go to, as you put it, dinosaurs. In fact it has never been harder for managers like that to get a job up here, the trend is to go for under qualified, under experienced recently retired players who have - albeit superficially - 'philosophies'. 

OK give you some of that but look at the guys who have taken charge of clubs in recent history and look at their backgrounds.

Jobs for the boys at best and that gave way to jobs for guys hanging up their boots if that pleases you.

Either way a cluster f**k of a country still on a downward trajectory with the professional body, media, fans of cheeks still only concerned about themselves and themselves only!

[vikingTON]

 

What full-time Scottish club has a 'dinosaur' in charge of them at the moment? Out of 20 of them, Motherwell probably, Duffy maybe fits that stereotype but he's done a superb job at Morton so can hardly criticise him for that.It's a complete myth that Scottish management jobs go to, as you put it, dinosaurs. In fact it has never been harder for managers like that to get a job up here, the trend is to go for under qualified, under experienced recently retired players who have - albeit superficially - 'philosophies'. 

Duffy has been a dinosaur largely from a tactical point of view; even he has finally ditched the Mike Bassett, "4-4--2 with two wingers" approach now. Which has coincided with his team overperforming. His coaching of players isn't really in doubt, which is why a former League One dud like Ricki Lamie is now a comfortable Championship level player.

I fully agree with the general point though. Scottish football clubs have in fact been very resilient to the idea of reusing older managers - dinosaurs or not - to fill vacant posts. Jimmy Calderwood for example has a very good CV on paper, couched with the money he spunked to achieve large parts of it of course , but it's still a remarkable fact and testament to the general mood in Scottish football that he has been shut out of senior management for years.

The major criticism I'd make is that in place of the dinosaurs Scottish clubs are far too open to letting 30-something ex-professionals with no credible experience manage them instead; it has swung to the opposite extreme. Aspiring managers should either be working their way up through the backroom staff at a much higher level than the club they start managing, or demonstrating their management skills in the regional leagues before earning that job. That's what Peter Weatherson appears to be attempting at Shettleston Juniors, which is a far more credible start to an ex-professional career in football than bitching and whining on the national media outlets until a senior team hands you a job.

[Diamonds are Forever]

10 minutes ago, The Saintee said:

The national side has a dinosaur in charge. 

 

Probably, as I said thought if you look at professional football in Scotland he is more the exception than the rule.

 

7 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

We appointed Jim Jefferies only a few years ago. Not too long before that we appointed Davie Hay.

Of course we also tried Stephen Kenny (rumours still persist that don't portray the dressing room at the time in a good light and indeed give a lot of credence to points made in this thread, especially around professionalism) and gave Jim McIntyre his first gig. We even tried John Potter for a bit.

I think it's more the media touting their old pals for all jobs that arise more than clubs actually appointing them.

 

 

As you point out though, if you look at the managers you have had over the last decade Dunfermline, 4 out of the 5 managers - Kenny, McIntyre, Potter, Johnston - were either first time managers, someone with 'different ideas' or still a very young manager. Jefferies was the exception to the rule during this time. it's interesting looking at your managers before Kenny in 2006. Calderwood, Hay and Leishman. Almost like after those 3 total dinosaurs it was the moment the club realised they needed to move into the modern world.

[7-2]

I don't think the boardrooms of Scottish football are full of forward thinking ground breakers. I expect young managers get a chance before the likes of Calderwood because they are the cheaper option.. 

[DA Baracus]

1 minute ago, Diamonds are Forever said:

 

Probably, as I said thought if you look at professional football in Scotland he is more the exception than the rule.

 

 

As you point out though, if you look at the managers you have had over the last decade Dunfermline, 4 out of the 5 managers - Kenny, McIntyre, Potter, Johnston - were either first time managers, someone with 'different ideas' or still a very young manager. Jefferies was the exception to the rule during this time. it's interesting looking at your managers before Kenny in 2006. Calderwood, Hay and Leishman. Almost like after those 3 total dinosaurs it was the moment the club realised they needed to move into the modern world.

Calderwood was appointed in 1999 and it was his first job in Scotland (he was also the 3rd highest paid manager in Scotland; we were in the First Division at the time). He was actually a fresh and forward thinking appointment at the time.

[Malcolm Malcolm]

3 minutes ago, vikingTON said:

 

Duffy has been a dinosaur largely from a tactical point of view; even he has finally ditched the Mike Bassett, "4-4--2 with two wingers" approach now. Which has coincided with his team overperforming. His coaching of players isn't really in doubt, which is why a former League One dud like Ricki Lamie is now a comfortable Championship level player.

I fully agree with the general point though. Scottish football clubs have in fact been very resilient to the idea reusing older managers - dinosaurs or not - to fill vacant posts. Jimmy Calderwood for example has a very good CV on paper, couched with the money he spunked to achieve large parts of it of course , but it's still a remarkable fact and testament to the general mood in Scottish football that he has been shut out of senior management for years.

The major criticism I'd make is that in place of the dinosaurs Scottish clubs are far too open to letting 30-something ex-professionals with no credible experience manage them instead; it has swung to the opposite extreme. Aspiring managers should either be working their way up through the backroom staff at a much higher level than the club they start managing, or demonstrating their management skills in the regional leagues before earning that job. That's what Peter Weatherson appears to be attempting at Shettleston Juniors, which is a far more credible start to an ex-professional career in football than bitching and whining on the national media outlets until a senior team hands you a job.
 

 

Totally agree with this.

[Malcolm Malcolm]

Just now, DA Baracus said:

Calderwood was appointed in 1999 and it was his first job in Scotland (he was also the 3rd highest paid manager in Scotland; we were in the First Division at the time). He was actually a fresh and forward thinking appointment at the time.

He also doesn't think depression is a serious illness, and is therefore a dangerous buffoon.

[Monkey Tennis]

17 minutes ago, Malcolm Malcolm said:

The thing is, and I've worked in education in various roles, that just like in football there are loads of dinosaurs and useless b*****ds who still think that way.

Yes, I've been involved for a long time myself.  Of course, as in any walk of life, it's as silly to pretend that all innovation is positive, as is the opposite.

However, the idea that everyone in football must have emerged from the same narrow mould is not healthy.

[DA Baracus]

1 minute ago, Malcolm Malcolm said:

He also doesn't think depression is a serious illness, and is therefore a dangerous buffoon.

True. He's also a massive bigot arsehole.

[vikingTON]

I don't think the boardrooms of Scottish football are full of forward thinking ground breakers. I expect young managers get a chance before the likes of Calderwood because they are the cheaper option.. 

Barry Ferguson wouldn't have been a cheaper option at Clyde than some League Two managerial veteran. Nor Paul Hartley at Alloa. I think that the Hartley case in particular has sold to a lot of Scottish clubs the idea that they'll unearth a managerial genius in the dying days of his playing career, get a few good seasons from him and make a healthy profit; either from moving up divisions or their manager's contract being bought out. The 35 year old manager at the moment is similar to signing a released youth striker from a big team, with the same aims for the club.

It's bollocks though, because the majority of them simply fail.

[Diamonds are Forever]

9 minutes ago, vikingTON said:

 

Duffy has been a dinosaur largely from a tactical point of view; even he has finally ditched the Mike Bassett, "4-4--2 with two wingers" approach now. Which has coincided with his team overperforming. His coaching of players isn't really in doubt, which is why a former League One dud like Ricki Lamie is now a comfortable Championship level player.

I fully agree with the general point though. Scottish football clubs have in fact been very resilient to the idea reusing older managers - dinosaurs or not - to fill vacant posts. Jimmy Calderwood for example has a very good CV on paper, couched with the money he spunked to achieve large parts of it of course , but it's still a remarkable fact and testament to the general mood in Scottish football that he has been shut out of senior management for years.

The major criticism I'd make is that in place of the dinosaurs Scottish clubs are far too open to letting 30-something ex-professionals with no credible experience manage them instead; it has swung to the opposite extreme. Aspiring managers should either be working their way up through the backroom staff at a much higher level than the club they start managing, or demonstrating their management skills in the regional leagues before earning that job. That's what Peter Weatherson appears to be attempting at Shettleston Juniors, which is a far more credible start to an ex-professional career in football than bitching and whining on the national media outlets until a senior team hands you a job.
 

 

 

Completely agree, your third paragraph is the point I have made a few times, most recently with Jack Ross at St Mirren. When they appointed him they were in the most perilous position the club have been in in decades, and the guy they see fit to fix the problem is a guy with 9 months managerial experience of part-time football. I find it totally bizarre. And similarly with Cathro, while I like the fact they are open to appointing a guy who hasn't 'played the game', the fact that the 3rd/4th biggest club in Scotland would appoint as manager a guy who has never been a manager before I find really strange. I actually think we are killing the careers of potentially good managers by throwing them in at far too high a level too soon, they sacked and then no-one will touch them again - see Ian Murray. Like you say, they should be developing their coaching and managerial skills at much lower levels, working their way up, and then when they get appointed by a club like Hearts there is no debate because they can just point to their CV as proof that they are up to the job.

[Diamonds are Forever]

16 minutes ago, 7-2 said:

I don't think the boardrooms of Scottish football are full of forward thinking ground breakers. I expect young managers get a chance before the likes of Calderwood because they are the cheaper option.. 

 

I do accept that is part of it, plus the 'sell-on' potential that someone like Calderwood would never have.

[Miguel Sanchez]

56 minutes ago, Cerberus said:

Didn't Barry Ferguson start a revolt against Paul Le Guen because he wanted to take away his half time tea and Jammy Dodgers?
Barry Ferguson who the media now link for every single job in Scotland.

Check they nick ae us.

Ferguson's frequent wailings in the Daily Record invariably include the sentence "you can't tell me a packet of pickled onion Monster Munch will stop someone from becoming a top player"

[Ludo*1]

You can say Duffy is shite (You'd have a point) but he's far from a dinosaur. He was employing a 4-3-3 and 4-2-1-3 tactic with us back in 03.

[vikingTON]

 

Completely agree, your third paragraph is the point I have made a few times, most recently with Jack Ross at St Mirren. When they appointed him they were in the most perilous position the club have been in in decades, and the guy they see fit to fix the problem is a guy with 9 months managerial experience of part-time football. I find it totally bizarre. And similarly with Cathro, while I like the fact they are open to appointing a guy who hasn't 'played the game', the fact that the 3rd/4th biggest club in Scotland would appoint as manager a guy who has never been a manager before I find really strange. I actually think we are killing the careers of potentially good managers by throwing them in at far too high a level too soon, they sacked and then no-one will touch them again - see Ian Murray. Like you say, they should be developing their coaching and managerial skills at much lower levels, working their way up, and then when they get appointed by a club like Hearts there is no debate because they can just point to their CV as proof that they are up to the job.

The difference I'd point out is that Cathro has credible experience working in the backroom staff at much, much bigger clubs than Hearts. Or indeed any club in Scottish football, given his spell at Valencia. I've no problem with a club taking the undoubted gamble based on that impressive CV; it's when they give the job to some ex-pro with nothing but coaching badges to their name that I view as a problem. If there were a dozen Cathro figures milling around top flight jobs with comparable experience instead of morons like Barry Ferguson then I doubt that Scottish club football would be as crap as it currently is by European standards IMO.

[superkillieaway]

48 minutes ago, vikingTON said:

 

Barry Ferguson wouldn't have been a cheaper option at Clyde than some League Two managerial veteran. Nor Paul Hartley at Alloa. I think that the Hartley case in particular has sold to a lot of Scottish clubs the idea that they'll unearth a managerial genius in the dying days of his playing career, get a few good seasons from him and make a healthy profit; either from moving up divisions or their manager's contract being bought out. The 35 year old manager at the moment is similar to signing a released youth striker from a big team, with the same aims for the club.

It's bollocks though, because the majority of them simply fail.
 

Yeah but most of them do their failing at St Mirren after they have duped into believing they are a good manager from half a season of decent results.

Good on the buddies for taking the hit for the rest of us.

[vikingTON]

You can say Duffy is shite (You'd have a point) but he's far from a dinosaur. He was employing a 4-3-3 and 4-2-1-3 tactic with us back in 03.

Duffy is a tactical dinosaur when he sticks to methods that aren't working - at Dundee as much as at Morton - but if he eventually sees sense and changes his approach then the excellent coaching does shine through.

I've never experienced a more infuriating manager, in terms of seeing great training ground improvements being sabotaged by gubbins matchday tactics. He's now overcoming that though, which is entirely to his credit.

[theoriginalhedge]

2 hours ago, Diamonds are Forever said:

 

What full-time Scottish club has a 'dinosaur' in charge of them at the moment? Out of 20 of them, Motherwell probably, Duffy maybe fits that stereotype but he's done a superb job at Morton so can hardly criticise him for that.It's a complete myth that Scottish management jobs go to, as you put it, dinosaurs. In fact it has never been harder for managers like that to get a job up here, the trend is to go for under qualified, under experienced recently retired players who have - albeit superficially - 'philosophies'. 

Some of the dinosaurs have been snapped up by the SFA to run the coaching courses, so rest assured the run roond the park 10 times till yer sick style of pre season training will be here for a wee while yet.  

[Diamonds are Forever]

33 minutes ago, vikingTON said:

 

The difference I'd point out is that Cathro has credible experience working in the backroom staff at much, much bigger clubs than Hearts. Or indeed any club in Scottish football, given his spell at Valencia. I've no problem with a club taking the undoubted gamble based on that impressive CV; it's when they give the job to some ex-pro with nothing but coaching badges to their name that I view as a problem. If there were a dozen Cathro figures milling around top flight jobs with comparable experience instead of morons like Barry Ferguson then I doubt that Scottish club football would be as crap as it currently is by European standards IMO.

 

 

Certainly compared to most of the guys who get managerial jobs these days, and guys who are touted for jobs, I have absolutely no problem with Cathro getting the job as he is vastly more qualified than them. I still feel managers who get to that level should really already have plenty managerial experience, however in the absence of that the experience he does have undoubtedly elevates him beyond Kris Boyd types who have nothing other than some coaching badges that anyone with enough time and money can get.

It's probably as good an environment as he could hope to go into though. Levein will give him plenty of support and already has the respect of the players, it seems a pretty young group, and even if he wasn't very good I can't really see them finishing below 4th anyway so it would be pretty difficult for him to fail in any way that would discredit him. Of course on the flip side you could argue that after this season it's going to be hard to finish above 3rd, and definitely never above 2nd, so given they are 4th just now there's not really much room for improvement (in terms of league position) either.