Juniors in the big Scottish do we deserve to be there?

[Burnie_man]

Regionalisation will not happen as

1. The clubs /chairmen don't want it and

2. neither do the vast majority of the fans who go week in week out.

The fact that (for example) not many Montrose fans normally travel to a league fixture at Galabank does not invalidate points 1 & 2. I speak as someone who was once the only Montrose fan at a midweek fixture there (300 mile round trip for a 0-0 end of season draw in 2010). Most die-hards on here, whatever their club in the lower reaches of the SPFL, will have had that experience at some point.

Times are hard and uncertain, money is tight, people have many more priorities than travelling a long distance to watch two sets of part-time cloggers slug it out. The days of big travelling supports at the lower levels other than for local derbies are probably, like the Dryburgh Cup, and the Tennent's Super Sixes, gone. I can't honestly see regionalisation changing this. Whilst I doubt I'd bother travelling to Annan or Berwick these days, I'm not sure I'd be much more motivated to travel to Brora or Wick under your "regionalised" model

I will admit one thing though- I am bored to death of the SPFL and have only been once this season, partly due to personal / work circumstances but partly also as I feel I am watching the same season year in year out. I have when I have had the time watched a lot more of the Highland League as a neutral and it is a good and enjoyable day out in the main. I hate the leagues of ten and four games a season against the same opposition, and I also really dislike promotion play-offs.

SPFL football just isn't much fun anymore, and it's gruesomely over-priced. Were I living in the Central belt I'd probably spend more time watching the juniors.

I think your honest comments are perhaps and argument for regionalisation as I outlined above.

An acquaintance of mine was an infrequent East Stirlinghire follower along with watching the Juniors. This season he has enjoyed following the Shire round the LL and has been to more games.

Maybe that is not representative of all ES fans but interesting to hear.

[Ivo den Bieman]

Arguments crumble against what I would say is near 100% opposition from club chairman and I would guess 95% of the fans. Attendances at L1 / L2 level have (HJ usually has all the facts and figures to hand) held up pretty well on the whole, in the teeth of a steep decline in playing standards.

It's fine to ague for regionalisation on paper but currently it has no traction at all amongst the regulars and the blazers, so it will not happen.

[Hertha/BJFC1938]

21 minutes ago, energyzone said:

 

Every town in the West of Scotland sees buses headed for the two clubs you mentioned.

Meadow are different from Auchinleck in that they play in a town of 40000 that doesn't have a senior team.

As you say - their attendances aren't the greatest so clearly junior football isn't capturing the imagination in Irvine. They already have a great ground and their local rivals rarely provide sustained competition for them so what would they have to lose?

 

But if their attendances aren't already great when they won super premier leagues and are competing locally then why would they swell if they played teams like BSC and Cumbernauld colts? 

The people of Irvine aren't getting behind Meadow much at present so I don't see a magic wand appearing if they for example headed to the lowland league with games up at alloa against BSC for example . 

[calmac25]

A lot of valid points from both sides & obviously if this was to happen then not everyone would be happy . A good place to start would be a national non league Scottish cup . Correct me if I'm wrong but Highland & lowland league sides don't have this at the moment. Would love to play say Forres Mechanics or Dalbeattie in a Scottish Cup tie .

I don't know if you've seen the fitba north all in non league cup thread in the cups section but having a real cup like that would be great. I think the total number of non league teams would still fit with the amount of rounds the Junior Cup has now.

One of the problem's would be available weekends for the trophy amongst the senior teams. There would need to be some kind of seeding to keep teams in the Senior Scottish cup out of the early rounds and come in at round 3 maybe if the Junior Cup.

[fan of the juniors]

I don't know if you've seen the fitba north all in non league cup thread in the cups section but having a real cup like that would be great. I think the total number of non league teams would still fit with the amount of rounds the Junior Cup has now.

One of the problem's would be available weekends for the trophy amongst the senior teams. There would need to be some kind of seeding to keep teams in the Senior Scottish cup out of the early rounds and come in at round 3 maybe if the Junior Cup.

The junior sides that play in the senior cup get a bye to the 2nd round just now & if they get any further it gets played the following week. Beith due to cup ties have only played 5 league games this season whilst Cumnock have played 13 . So it could easily be worked around but falling behind in the league is an issue

Edit to add that I just had a look & despite our 1st round exit what a great cup that would be .

[WaffenThinMint]

9 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

An acquaintance of mine was an infrequent East Stirlinghire follower along with watching the Juniors. This season he has enjoyed following the Shire round the LL and has been to more games.

Aye, because they're running up cricket scores, same as the rest of the Billy Big Baws merchants that have appeared out of the woodwork declaring themselves "Shire Loyal" - and Devil take the hindmost if ES get back up into the Scottish League & normal business is resumed.

There are many good arguments in favour of greater regionalisation: pandering to the reflected glory hunters so atypical of Scottish football is not one of them.

[calmac25]

The junior sides that play in the senior cup get a bye to the 2nd round just now & if they get any further it gets played the following week. Beith due to cup ties have only played 5 league games this season whilst Cumnock have played 13 . So it could easily be worked around but falling behind in the league is an issue

That works fine in the juniors where games can be left til later in the season. In the lowland and highland league's where fixture lists and hospitality is booked up in advance then having to postpone more games would become an issue.

There would need to be a bit of give and take to make it a goer but nothing that a few rational people couldn't sort out.

I see on cup draws people looking forward to trips to fochabers or burghead. If the big highland league teams were involved i can only imagine it would be more exciting going for long journeys for a game when you know there's going to be a challenge involved

[fan of the juniors]

That works fine in the juniors where games can be left til later in the season. In the lowland and highland league's where fixture lists and hospitality is booked up in advance then having to postpone more games would become an issue.

There would need to be a bit of give and take to make it a goer but nothing that a few rational people couldn't sort out.

I see on cup draws people looking forward to trips to fochabers or burghead. If the big highland league teams were involved i can only imagine it would be more exciting going for long journeys for a game when you know there's going to be a challenge involved

Our major flaw actually working for us for a change . Yip I'm sure there would be a few hurdles to clear but as you say it would be a lot more exciting .

[calmac25]

Our major flaw actually working for us for a change . Yip I'm sure there would be a few hurdles to clear but as you say it would be a lot more exciting .

Imagine if BSC Glasgow won it...[emoji378] [emoji378]

[fan of the juniors]

Imagine if BSC Glasgow won it...[emoji378] [emoji378]

Are they still called that since they moved to Alloa? [emoji23]

[calmac25]

Aye, because they're running up cricket scores, same as the rest of the Billy Big Baws merchants that have appeared out of the woodwork declaring themselves "Shire Loyal" - and Devil take the hindmost if ES get back up into the Scottish League & normal business is resumed.

There are many good arguments in favour of greater regionalisation: pandering to the reflected glory hunters so atypical of Scottish football is not one of them.

There's also an argument against regionalisation from east Stirlingshire being relegated, supposedly their gates are less then half of what they were despite winning regularly and scoring piles of goals. There must be some loss of prestige dropping out of the national leagues. Away crowds will be lower but based in some statistics here away crowds will have been single or double figures in league 2. I'd be interested to see what the difference would be if they were in the East juniors with games against bo'ness, linlithgow and camelon

[energyzone]

But if their attendances aren't already great when they won super premier leagues and are competing locally then why would they swell if they played teams like BSC and Cumbernauld colts? 

The people of Irvine aren't getting behind Meadow much at present so I don't see a magic wand appearing if they for example headed to the lowland league with games up at alloa against BSC for example . 

For various reasons - the chance of playing different teams, the chance of promotion, entry into the Senior Cup every year and with it the chance of drawing one of the Premier teams.

The potential for a senior team in Irvine is huge, in my opinion. You've seen it yourself on this thread - people look down their noses at the juniors but might start following a senior team if the set-up is correct and the potential is shown.

Whether the existing fans want that or not is another matter.

[Jack Burton]

Only because of the way that lower division part-time SPFL clubs are financially doped through handouts generated from revenues attracted by the larger full-time clubs (mainly the Old Firm). Take that away and your finances would be similar to Pollok's and the cost of running a bus to venues beyond Dundee would start to become an issue.

I would be surprised if that was the case. Clyde's income is around £450k per season of which approx £80k comes from SPFL and SFA. We received more money from the SFL when Irn Bru sponsored the first, second third division without the Old Firm and with only some full time sides in the first, mainly.

You receive a winter payment of a couple of thousand from the SFA but the rest is prize money and is variable depending where you finish in the league or how well you do in the cups.

[Hertha/BJFC1938]

12 minutes ago, energyzone said:

 

For various reasons - the chance of playing different teams, the chance of promotion, entry into the Senior Cup every year and with it the chance of drawing one of the Premier teams.

The potential for a senior team in Irvine is huge, in my opinion. You've seen it yourself on this thread - people look down their noses at the juniors but might start following a senior team if the set-up is correct and the potential is shown.

Whether the existing fans want that or not is another matter.

 

I know where you're coming from in saying that Irvine is a large town population wise but so is Kilmarnock , ayr and Paisley and their current senior clubs are struggling to get fans through the turnstiles , I've got no reason at all to think that Irvine meadow would get large attendances and that there would be a huge difference in crowd figures if they joined the pyramid, would be interested as you say to hear what meadow fans would think of it ? 

[The Moonster]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

 

You keep believing my two examples are useless if it makes you feel you have an argument. If you've been following Dumbarton for any length of time you know as well as I do that these figures are are fairly common.

What was it last season, 4 Stranraer fans at Peterhead?

 

As a Dumbarton fan I know fine well how shite regionalisation is. We regionalised the league cup this year, where did we end up playing? Forfar, Dundee and home to...(drum roll please)...PETERHEAD.

I don't remember anyone saying how great the crowd was for their League Cup match, but perhaps I missed those comments.

[Jack Burton]

Can you blame the league 1 & 2 clubs? They have by far the most to lose in this scenario.

It looks odds on that St Mirren will be relegated to league 1 next season. They would essentially be relegated two or three divisions if the leagues were regionalised at that level. You would also have issues in terms of disparity of entry prices, attendances quality of clubs and the likes of Berwick and Stranraer would be in the west division. You would have to significantly increase the size of the championship up to 18 teams to have three regionalised leagues underneath it.

My preference would be to combine league 1 & 2 into one division of 18. There isn't too much difference between the clubs at that level on the above points. You can then have 4 relegation places one for each of the west, east, north regional league winners underneath it and one for a play off involving some of the runners up etc in the regional leagues. Promotion up to the combined league one or two would be optional.

I posted the above in reply to a similar post about regionalising leagues 1 & 2.

I think my examples "punch holes" in the fact that fans of these clubs want to travel nationally. It's clearly not the case, that is the straw man in this debate.

If a regionalised league with a mix of current League Two sides and the best that the HL/LL and Juniors had to offer, then we'd see a lot more interest in our game at that level than we have at present. I think it would bring on board some of the top Juniors.

Clyde, Berwick, Annan, Cowdenbeath, Edinburgh City and Stirling Albion, in a 16 team league with eg. East Kilbride, Spartans, East Stirling, Pollok, Auchinleck Talbot, Linlithgow Rose, Bo'ness United, Kelty Hearts, Bonnyrigg Rose and Beith  would in my opinion generate a lot of interest in the lower reaches of the SPFL.

Forfar, Elgin, Arbroath, Montrose, Buckie Thistle, Brora Rangers, Cove Rangers, Formartine, Fraserburgh, Inverurie, Banks O'Dee, Culter, Lochee Utd, Broughty Athletic, Carnoustie Panmure in the North.

I don't expect you to agree, but turkeys don't vote for Christmas afterall.

[Burnie_man]

8 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

As a Dumbarton fan I know fine well how shite regionalisation is. We regionalised the league cup this year, where did we end up playing? Forfar, Dundee and home to...(drum roll please)...PETERHEAD.

I don't remember anyone saying how great the crowd was for their League Cup match, but perhaps I missed those comments.

The return of League Cup groups is a farce, not exactly sure what that has to do with this discussion though.

[The Moonster]

8 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

The return of League Cup groups is a farce, not exactly sure what that has to do with this discussion though.

If you can't connect the dots there then I think we'll leave it at that. 

[Burnie_man]

6 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

 

I posted the above in reply to a similar post about regionalising leagues 1 & 2.

 

Two top divisions encompassing 28, 30 or 32 clubs, then three regions below that West/East/North encompassing 48 clubs, then below that a structure similar to the current Junior structure.

That's far too radical for Scottish football though, as we can see from this thread alone. Too much vested self interest at all levels.

 

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, The Moonster said:

If you can't connect the dots there then I think we'll leave it at that. 

There are no dots the connect, the League Cup returning to groups is a flawed concept for a competition on its last legs, most people could see that. It'll go back to straight knock-out, or be scrapped altogether before long. Nice try at linking it to league regionalisation though.