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Juniors in the big Scottish do we deserve to be there?


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13 hours ago, fan of the juniors said:


Even at a higher level it happen. Slightly lesser distance but Killie going to Aberdeen last night was another farcical decision

When a weekend game gets postponed it has to be played midweek, because every Saturday already has fixtures.  This is normal in any league system which has a regular fixture list and 30+ games per season.

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1 hour ago, craigkillie said:

When a weekend game gets postponed it has to be played midweek, because every Saturday already has fixtures.  This is normal in any league system which has a regular fixture list and 30+ games per season.

Absolutely, which highlights the insanity of the likes of Stranraer or Annan or Berwick being in the same division as Peterhead or Elgin. Part time football played in front of 400 fans with 12 hour round trips of 500+ miles. Bad enough on a Saturday, insane on a Tuesday.

Problem is, none of the blazers want to admit its madness.

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Absolutely, which highlights the insanity of the likes of Stranraer or Annan or Berwick being in the same division as Peterhead or Elgin. Part time football played in front of 400 fans with 12 hour round trips of 500+ miles. Bad enough on a Saturday, insane on a Tuesday.

Problem is, none of the blazers want to admit its madness.



Pt clubs don't usually make these trips unless there's no alternative. It is extremely rare. Also you have to remember that most of Berwicks players will actually live in Edinburgh and most of Stranraers players Glasgow. It's not literally the distance between the two towns.
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Just now, 1320Lichtie said:

 


Pt clubs don't usually make these trips unless there's no alternative. It is extremely rare. Also you have to remember that most of Berwicks players will actually live in Edinburgh and most of Stranraers players Glasgow. It's not literally the distance between the two towns.

Where the players live is immaterial, that's not the concern of the SPFL, however Peterhead will make over a dozen journeys to the central belt for league football this season, plus two to Stranraer. Elgin will make two journeys each to Berwick and Annan, plus another 8 to the central belt. So these journeys are not extremely rare either.  Travelling fans will be minimal, particularly midweek.

This all to play in front of crowds ranging from 300-600. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and yet the Juniors are accused of being backward in not joining a Pyramid and aspiring to league football? Maybe they can see the insanity that awaits in League One and Two.

We need someone to be "radical" (although I prefer the term sensible) when it comes to looking at the failures of Scottish football and where we can improve.

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Where the players live is immaterial, that's not the concern of the SPFL, however Peterhead will make over a dozen journeys to the central belt for league football this season, plus two to Stranraer. Elgin will make two journeys each to Berwick and Annan, plus another 8 to the central belt. So these journeys are not extremely rare either.  Travelling fans will be minimal, particularly midweek.

This all to play in front of crowds ranging from 300-600. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and yet the Juniors are accused of being backward in not joining a Pyramid and aspiring to league football? Maybe they can see the insanity that awaits in League One and Two.

We need someone to be "radical" (although I prefer the term sensible) when it comes to looking at the failures of Scottish football and where we can improve.

2 journeys over 10 months. Wow. Mental.

Poor players having to travel 5 hours on a bus every 5 months, and like I said the vast majority of players at all clubs are in the central belt anyway.

As an Arbroath fan the longest journey I'll make is 3 hours.

Montrose, Forfar = under 25 minutes

Cowdenbeath, Stirling, Edinburgh City = hour and 15

Clyde = hour and a half

Elgin, Berwick, Annan = 2 and a half to 3 hours.

So 6 trips over 2 hours in 10 month.

For what it's worth the last 3 clubs at the longest distances are the days out most of the fans look forward too. It's really not bad.

Scotland is a very small country with the vast majority of clubs and population between a distance of Montrose to Ayr. A 2 hour journey.

I have a few friends who played for Montrose Roselea last season, last year they had to go down to Haddington and the likes I'm sure, now it's even worse for them with joining the north league. They left and went to Tayport, where they still travel down well past Edinburgh to play infront of less than 50 people for practically no money. Players in the seniors are paid very well considering it's a part time job.

You're using the extreme examples and acting like it is the norm.

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12 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

2 journeys over 10 months. Wow. Mental.

Poor players having to travel 5 hours on a bus every 5 months, and like I said the vast majority of players at all clubs are in the central belt anyway.

As an Arbroath fan the longest journey I'll make is 3 hours.

Montrose, Forfar = under 25 minutes

Cowdenbeath, Stirling, Edinburgh City = hour and 15

Clyde = hour and a half

Elgin, Berwick, Annan = 2 and a half to 3 hours.

So 6 trips over 2 hours in 10 month.

For what it's worth the last 3 clubs at the longest distances are the days out most of the fans look forward too. It's really not bad.

Scotland is a very small country with the vast majority of clubs and population between a distance of Montrose to Ayr. A 2 hour journey.

I have a few friends who played for Montrose Roselea last season, last year they had to go down to Haddington and the likes I'm sure, now it's even worse for them with joining the north league. They left and went to Tayport, where they still travel down well past Edinburgh to play infront of less than 50 people for practically no money. Players in the seniors are paid very well considering it's a part time job.

You're using the extreme examples and acting like it is the norm.

My good man, can I suggest that if you can get from Montrose to Ayr in two hours, there is a certain world champion formula one driver just resigned, perhaps you could fill the vacancy?

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39 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

...Players in the seniors are paid very well considering it's a part time job....

Only because they get very generous subsidy handouts from the SPFL and SFA for having a strong voting block at AGMs. Take that away and there would soon be regionalisation beneath the second tier.

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1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Only because they get very generous subsidy handouts from the SPFL and SFA for having a strong voting block at AGMs. Take that away and there would soon be regionalisation beneath the second tier.

What strong voting block is that?  The 20 clubs in Leagues 1 and 2 have one representative on the SPFL board between them.

The "subsidies" come from, in the main, sponsors.  If the Juniors, a body I thoroughly respect may I add, had decent sponsors, their clubs would get the "subsidies" too.  But they don't.  A lot of the SFA handouts are for running youth teams that are useful in the community.  I don't think too many Junior clubs run large youth set-ups.

A lot of Junior fans whine about the money that comes to clubs in the SPFL set-up (now including the LL and HL).  If it's such a big issue, they can always choose, individually or collectively, to join the SPFL camp.  The pyramid, flawed though it is, has opened up "senior" membership to every team in Scotland.  If the Juniors decided tomorrow to commit to it, the SPFL and SFA would embrace them warmly; that has been the objective from the word go.  I don't think that they should join up, but it's time for Juniors to put up or shut up.  Irrespective of great results like Bonnyrigg's this week, if they're not interested in joining the SFA, they shouldn't be in the cup competitions run by the SPFL or the SFA.

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1 hour ago, Isabel Goudie said:

My good man, can I suggest that if you can get from Montrose to Ayr in two hours, there is a certain world champion formula one driver just resigned, perhaps you could fill the vacancy?

Turbo tractors have revolutionised travel in Angus.

Seriously though, our towns are spread out over a large geographical area, much of which is very sparsely populated, with a majority of the senior football teams following this and being crammed into a central belt / Tayside area.  Without an even spread and / or regionalisation, you'll always have the outposts like Peterhead and Stranraer making daft trips.  

Without ALL Scottish clubs being in the same set-up, you'll never really address this.  Peterhead could move 100 miles south or rejoin the HL.  They see their future as being the SPFL set-up and have enough cash to allow them to do that.  No point in screaming how daft it is.  Although it is certainly daft.

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18 minutes ago, Hampden Diehard said:

What strong voting block is that?  The 20 clubs in Leagues 1 and 2 have one representative on the SPFL board between them.

The "subsidies" come from, in the main, sponsors.  If the Juniors, a body I thoroughly respect may I add, had decent sponsors, their clubs would get the "subsidies" too.  But they don't.  A lot of the SFA handouts are for running youth teams that are useful in the community.  I don't think too many Junior clubs run large youth set-ups.

A lot of Junior fans whine about the money that comes to clubs in the SPFL set-up (now including the LL and HL).  If it's such a big issue, they can always choose, individually or collectively, to join the SPFL camp.  The pyramid, flawed though it is, has opened up "senior" membership to every team in Scotland.  If the Juniors decided tomorrow to commit to it, the SPFL and SFA would embrace them warmly; that has been the objective from the word go.  I don't think that they should join up, but it's time for Juniors to put up or shut up.  Irrespective of great results like Bonnyrigg's this week, if they're not interested in joining the SFA, they shouldn't be in the cup competitions run by the SPFL or the SFA.

Maybe the Juniors should go back to the old Intermediate Dispute and hunt the SFA vulture teams that gather at the end of the season to snap up out of contract Juniors which robs the Junior team of hard earned transfer cash. However rules are rules.

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29 minutes ago, Hampden Diehard said:

The pyramid, flawed though it is, has opened up "senior" membership to every team in Scotland.

On this particular point, how do clubs north of the Tay  eg. Banks O'Dee, join the pyramid?

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2 hours ago, 1320Lichtie said:

2 journeys over 10 months. Wow. Mental.

 

Peterhead, Elgin, Stranraer, Berwick and Annan will make considerably more than two long journeys over the course of a season.

And I think some of your travel times are a little generous.

Regionalisation at the lowest level ie League Two, is a no brainer, it wont be perfect but absorb those clubs into the HL and a reformed LL and with Junior involvement would be a significant step forward to encouraging more fans to attend more localised games.

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30 minutes ago, Hampden Diehard said:

Without ALL Scottish clubs being in the same set-up, you'll never really address this.  Peterhead could move 100 miles south or rejoin the HL.  They see their future as being the SPFL set-up and have enough cash to allow them to do that.  No point in screaming how daft it is.  Although it is certainly daft.

If we use Peterhead (and Elgin) as an example, if they both ended up in a regionalised bottom SPFL tier, with HL involvement, instead of Stranraer, Annan and Berwick, they potentially would have Buckie, Formartine and Cove Rangers.

It wouldn't be perfect as regional splits never are, but its less daft.

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20 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Peterhead, Elgin, Stranraer, Berwick and Annan will make considerably more than two long journeys over the course of a season.

And I think some of your travel times are a little generous.

Regionalisation at the lowest level ie League Two, is a no brainer, it wont be perfect but absorb those clubs into the HL and a reformed LL and with Junior involvement would be a significant step forward to encouraging more fans to attend more localised games.

How long a journey is it for the likes of Cove Rangers and Formartine to Brora or Wick?

Should we go even further than regionalisation? Perhaps a Glasgow and the surrounding area pyramid system?

There will always be travelling etc. The likes of Elgin, Peterhead and Annan knew they would have to travel when they applied successfully to enter the senior leagues and they still opted to do so.

Some clubs want to remain in a local set up and that's fine. Others are prepared to accept the downside of a national set up to see how far they can progress.

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47 minutes ago, Blackie Gold said:

Maybe the Juniors should go back to the old Intermediate Dispute and hunt the SFA vulture teams that gather at the end of the season to snap up out of contract Juniors which robs the Junior team of hard earned transfer cash. However rules are rules.

Maybe the juniors should stop charging reinstatement for people who happen to have played Senior football. Everyone said it couldn't / wouldn't be done for retention but no-one has missed it since it went, AFAICS. Cuts both ways. Ultimately your complaint is about the Bosman ruling, and not specific to the relationship between Senior and Junior football, whereas reinstatement is exclusive to that relationship.


On the travel thing: the problem you have is that regionalising SPFL1 & SPFL2 makes surprisingly little difference to travelling because of where the clubs are located.

I calculated it a couple of seasons ago for Berwick and it was something like a 10%-15% difference. Only real benefit was getting rid of Elgin/Peterhead trips to Annan/Berwick/Stranraer. Clubs... and I think many fans... won't rate that above concerns about diminished prestige, coverage, sponsorship, credibility, League Cup access, etc. etc.

Pinning the argument to crowds won't carry much weight because SPFL crowds are higher than almost all non-league crowds.

Obviously suggestions like dissolving one or both levels entirely and merging in with HL & LL (and maybe Juniors) in 3 or more regions are a further step still.

Not saying that's right or wrong - just a reflection of the reality.

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