SFA and Uncle Roy carving up the Elite Youth set up

[capt_oats]

I can understand the thinking of it however I think the ideal and the reality are probably two different things. In an ideal world you've got kids getting game time against competitive, experienced pros and are required to up their game. The reality, unfortunately, is more likely to be the experienced players treat the game as a kick about and maybe play at 75% conscious of avoiding injury or playing with a petted lip because they're turning out against kids.

In a way forcing a manager to play overage players is more detrimental than giving them the option of playing them.

I agree that there needs to be a gap bridged for some players but it's very much a horses for courses situation. From a MFC point of view we've loaned out Dom Thomas because it was increasingly obvious that he'd outgrown u20s football but wasn't able to make an impact at first team level however Jack McMillan, Ross MacLean and last season Ben Hall have all stepped into the first team and held their own without having to go out on loan. Ultimately they all have the same experience of development league football, I think it's possibly the case that the SFA are looking for a broad strokes solution where there isn't necessarily one. Will forcing a manager to play a handful of "experienced" pros alongside the kids really have that much of a meaningful impact on their development or would they be better served just letting the coaches get on with it and use their judgement with regards specific players?

In fact I'm not so sure the problem is the format itself and more the coaches and attitudes towards it. Again to use Motherwell as an example, under McCall it wasn't a priority and was essentially mothballed, there was next to no pathway to the first team and under Johansson the u20s were getting scudded 5-1 by Aberdeen 2 years ago. Since McCall and Johansson left, McGhee, Craigan and Lasley are on board, youth development has become a priority and a key part of the business model for the club, the 20s are being well coached and integrated into the first team and we've seen many of the same players who were getting roasted under Johansson's tenure go on to win the Youth Cup last season and establish themselves in the first team.

That's really it, you can rearrange the deck chairs all you like but until the clubs actually do something about it then all the changes will remain largely impotent. What's more, what works for Motherwell may not work for Aberdeen and in turn what works for both of them may not be a suitable model for Dundee or Thistle.

[HibeeJibee]

I don't think changing from an U20s Development League with a maximum number of over-agers allowed to an SPFL Trophy (rubbish name btw: it sounds like a cup) with a minimum and maximum number of over-agers, will make much difference.That said I can see why some people will think it's potentially detrimental to youth development if a club wanted to go largely or fully with youngsters.

Changing the 8-team top level of development to 10 or 12 would placate those clubs who feared being excluded. It's more concerning that, according to the Motherwell chairman, the head of the SFA happily admitted that the 8 had been "plucked from thin air" or whatever the quote was, and that the selection criteria was flawed... Also the other important aspect is how and how often the clubs are reassessed. You may pick 8, 10 or 12 clubs now but they may not be the most deserving 8, 10 or 12 in 5yrs or 10yrs time.

These aspects aside I don't think the other parts of 'Project Brave' are very controversial at all - with the big exception of OF 'B' teams in SPFL2 (if that's even an intrinsic part of it).

[steelmen]

Saw Malky McKay and his 'get behind this plan' story yesterday. I see we are now up to 16 teams... think if we give it another week it will be 42??

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38735136

[Swello]

All a bit of a shambles quite honestly and it will not be helpful for long term budgeting by clubs. I still can't see why there needs to be any arbitrary ceiling on the number - surely if a club meets the entry criteria, then they should be in the new structure no questions aksed. If the entry criteria are strict and the bar is set high, resulting in a smaller number of qualifying academies at first, I could live with that as long as it remains an open structure. That way, clubs that want to be in can make the necessary changes and investments over time and in a sustainable way knowing that there is additional resources available once they get there.

If this is simply a matter of limited funding resulting in the 8 or 16 figure, then I would suggest that the SFA needs to prioritise this to ensure that funding is there - by cutting other less important areas (eg, marketing, blazer supply, happy endings for committee members in east european massage parlours during qualifier trips) if necessary.

[HibeeJibee]

It was always said that it would be 16 academies down from 29 - but there was some kind of "implication" that within this 16 the clubs would be separated into an upper and lower set of 8 each. So that piece doesn't necessarily mean the proposal has changed (although other reports have suggested it will be). Not clear how it would work anyway, if they do expand the "Elite 8": do you end-up with an "Elite 12" and only 4 in the bottom category? or do you end-up with an "Elite 12" and still 8 in the bottom category, meaning only cutting from 29 to 20? etc. etc.

As Swello says it's also unclear how it will be decided. Do you assess all the applicants, rank them, then put the best 8 in the upper category, the next 8 in the lower category, and bin the rest? Do you agree benchmarks and take all those who meet them, whether it's 7 or 10, 14 or 20? What if some reportedly "guaranteed" clubs come below others? How often are allocations reassessed?

[HibeeJibee]

I'm sure there will be amazement throughout the nation that, wait for it, just 8 clubs managed to meet top-level criteria: being Rangers, Celtic, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, Hamilton, Kilmarnock - and Motherwell. Ross County may appeal to be 'uprated'.

Another 8 met middle-level criteria (Ayr, Dundee Utd, Falkirk etc., Inverness, Partick, Ross County, St Mirren and St Johnstone). Morton may appeal to be 'uprated'.

Bottom-level contains Dundee, Fife FA and Morton.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/celtic/sfa-confirms-project-brave-academy-placings-1-4613908

[Salvo Montalbano]

I'm sure there will be amazement throughout the nation that, wait for it, just 8 clubs managed to meet top-level criteria: being Rangers, Celtic, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, Hamilton, Kilmarnock - and Motherwell. Ross County may appeal to be 'uprated'.

Another 8 met middle-level criteria (Ayr, Dundee Utd, Falkirk etc., Inverness, Partick, Ross County, St Mirren and St Johnstone). Morton may appeal to be 'uprated'.

Bottom-level contains Dundee, Fife FA and Morton.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/celtic/sfa-confirms-project-brave-academy-placings-1-4613908

That'll be the Dundee who were spending loads on getting their ducks in a row by hiring new coaches, physios etc and Fife who have three players in the under 19/21 squads at the moment in the lowest category? What a great advertisement for this brave new dawn.

[Dons_1988]

Stupid question but what does this elite status actually mean in practice other than another star above our badge?

[Squirrelhumper]

30 minutes ago, Salvo Montalbano said:

That'll be the Dundee who were spending loads on getting their ducks in a row by hiring new coaches, physios etc and Fife who have three players in the under 19/21 squads at the moment in the lowest category? What a great advertisement for this brave new dawn.

It all seemed a bit last minute from Dundee.

 

[tree house tam]

27 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

Stupid question but what does this elite status actually mean in practice other than another star above our badge?

£££

[capt_oats]

49 minutes ago, Squirrelhumper said:

It all seemed a bit last minute from Dundee.

I'll not lie, I don't know anything about Dundee's Academy but given they were advertising for, amongst other staff, a Head of Academy which as stated in their own job description involves overall management of the Academy it seems a pretty fundamental role not to have in place when you're only a couple of months ahead of roll out.

Some Dees might be able to shed some light on things but who's actually running their Academy at the moment. I know Jimmy Boyle's "Head of Youth" but is that it? No Academy Director, no Head of Recruitment, no Head of Children's programme?

Most Academies have someone in place overseeing things from top to bottom, a Director if you will and generally speaking there seems to be a pretty standard framework with most of the positions Dundee were advertising already in place (and have been for years). This honestly isn't a dig but if Dundee don't even have a Head of Academy or a basic framework in place just now, should it really be a surprise they're in the bottom tier?

I'm all for taking a pop at the SFA's ineptitude but if Dundee's application amounted to "we'll totally hire some guys (if we get in)" and had no historic evidence relating to an Academy structure to back up the application then you're talking about basic fundamentals. They've advertised for SIX staff members less than a month before the tier gradings were announced. It may well have been the case that it had been planned in advance but it's not a really a good look (if you're actually genuine in your application).

50 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

Stupid question but what does this elite status actually mean in practice other than another star above our badge?

As Tam says, the key bit is here: 

Quote

Enhanced funding for achieving MPOs will encourage best practice, with the objective of Project Brave to harness the success of the strategic plan and ensure a more efficient pathway to first-team football.

Those not selected for the ‘Elite’ top tier will still have access to a level of funding from the Scottish Football Association to support the running and improvement of their academies.

 Basically if you're in the Elite banding you get more money diverted your way. If you're not Elite you get "an amount".

[Swello]

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

 Basically if you're in the Elite banding you get more money diverted your way. If you're not Elite you get "an amount".

Sounds suspiciously like the founding principle of the SPL.

[capt_oats]

5 minutes ago, Swello said:

Sounds suspiciously like the founding principle of the SPL.

Flow's quotes on the official site and his comments just there on Twitter are quite interesting in so much as he's saying that his stance on the whole thing hasn't changed. Given how vocal he's been it'd be interesting to know if the SFA have made any concessions. The Progressive tier sounds like it's something that wasn't originally planned but I'm curious to see how that plays out in practice.

Quote

“Now, as the only fully fan-owned club in the Scottish Premiership, and in Project Brave, having that pathway which culminates in effective player trading is a cornerstone of our strategy and model.

“So despite our fairly public reservations, we had no other option or choice but to strive to be at the elite level, alongside the seven other clubs named today. What it means for us in real terms is a significant financial outlay in terms of the staff and infrastructure at the academy, but that’s part of our commitment to youth football and the production of good young players.

“It’s our job as a club to ensure we can meet those obligations whilst still trying to be competitive as a club, both on and off the park.

“We currently have academy talent representing every single youth side Scotland has from schoolboys to under 21s. We have rivals from both sides of the border circling our club constantly looking to try and entice our young players and, most importantly, we have academy graduates who have stepped up and play regularly in our first team, proving their worth.

“Those are all positive performance indicators. We will have dedicated recruitment, analysis and sports science arms that will make what we offer as good as any other academy in Scotland.”

 

[Cerberus]

If the money is divided up in the traditional Scottish football way then Rangers and Celtic will get 90% of the money and the other Elite clubs will get the remaining 10% between them.

[HibeeJibee]

So the 7 SFA Performance Schools were located in Glasgow, Kilmarnock, Motherwell, Edinburgh, Falkirk, Dundee & Aberdeen and the 8 Elite clubs are Glasgow (x2), Kilmarnock, Motherwell, Hamilton, Edinburgh (x2) & Aberdeen.

All sounds great if you live in big cities or Strathclyde: but what's the prospect for young players in the south, Fife, Stirling, Perth, Tayside/Angus, or the north?

[Dons_1988]

If the money is divided up in the traditional Scottish football way then Rangers and Celtic will get 90% of the money and the other Elite clubs will get the remaining 10% between them.

Well without rangers and Celtic none of the rest of us would know what elite even means so it's only fair.

[ICTChris]

How do the 'shared' academies work, the Fife one and the Forth valley one?

[thisal]

16 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

So the 7 SFA Performance Schools were located in Glasgow, Kilmarnock, Motherwell, Edinburgh, Falkirk, Dundee & Aberdeen and the 8 Elite clubs are Glasgow (x2), Kilmarnock, Motherwell, Hamilton, Edinburgh (x2) & Aberdeen.

All sounds great if you live in big cities or Strathclyde: but what's the prospect for young players in the south, Fife, Stirling, Perth, Tayside/Angus, or the north?

Yeah your right. They should be divided up geographically so that there is the same number of coaches for the  duke of Atholls grouse moor as there is for Glasgow.

[Kneetrembler]

2 hours ago, thisal said:

Yeah your right. They should be divided up geographically so that there is the same number of coaches for the  duke of Atholls grouse moor as there is for Glasgow.

There should be something in Inverness. It's not all about the numbers. This is our national sport. 

[thisal]

 

1 hour ago, Kneetrembler said:

There should be something in Inverness. It's not all about the numbers. This is our national sport. 

There is. Inverness is in the progressive tier along with Ross County.