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SFA and Uncle Roy carving up the Elite Youth set up


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This story seems really odd to me. I don't understand what possible 'why' the SFA would be presenting with this proposal that would win the support of their members. If a club has the right facilities and correct personnel, there shouldn't be an arbitrary number which denies them the right to compete at the best level possible.If I were in charge, I'd be continuing to support the optional academies that many clubs participate in (on a voluntary basis) and spending the next few years working on the structure and allocation of power in this model. In principle, it's a great idea to have a mechanism for smaller clubs to pool their resources together to get use of better facilities and be able to hire more qualified staff but there are always going to be issues in introducing a change like this. It'll take some time to get it right.

I'd also be looking at ways in which clubs could be encouraged into using their own talent. It'd be a hard thing to legislate for (if you dictated a percentage of the budget had to be invested in 'x', bigger clubs would be able to take that hit much more easily and do creative accounting around their income streams) and we'd take some time to see the effects of it. A player isn't suddenly going to become a top internationalist if they lack the ability and are given game time but if the attitude changes and it brings a new emphasis on the importance of youth football, it will work in our favour.

For starters, I would say something like:

  • Each non homegrown future signing will be subject to an additional tax of 15% of their wage for a Scottish (as in been raised through our footballing system) homegrown player who didn't originate from that club and 50% for a player who has had no education in the Scottish system. 
  • Work permits will only be granted for two seasons. If in this time period, a player over a certain age has not played a certain number of games, their status will be revoked unless evidence could be provided that shows they have been injured in some way.
  • A foundation of an international transfer scheme. Players signed under this model from abroad would be exempt from some of the limits providing a homegrown player has spent a season in another (good footballing countries) nation. Although it seems contradictory when my previous two points have been about getting homegrown players playing in the league, I think it's a negative thing that it's very rare for our players to go abroad and experience something different.
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On 11/26/2016 at 21:49, Illgresi said:

Inverness are a well known powerhouse of youth development yourselves... You've managed one good Shinnie. Enlighten me as to how you have the position to slag County?

As to the OP, it's a horrendous idea. The youth systems in this country are mostly being invested in, and at least from an Aberdeen point of view, heavily so, and being fruitful.

I have no problem with the SFA setting up development schools. In fact, I think it's a great idea. The so called 'elite' teams can have our own systems, and the players who fall through the cracks can be picked up by the SFA system. However, the notion of dividing youth systems on the basis of how 'big' their parent club is, is horrendous.

Liam Polworth, Ryan Christie, Jamie Duff, Nick Ross have all played and and some scored for their country at under 21 level.

We also produced Graeme Shinnie for you guys too.  County have no one of that calibre.  There's my position to slag  them.

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On 27/11/2016 at 10:32, DeeTillEhDeh said:

The whole set-up stinks of a carve up between the top clubs.

The crazy thing is that going to Celtic/Rangers is probably the worst thing a young player could do to further their career.

 

Its really not though, the idea that going to a bigger club as a young boy ruins your career is simply false. Kids choosing to go to Celtic at a young age are making the right decision they are training in the best facilities with the best coaches in country. Our youth set up and partnership with St Ninians is light-years ahead of what anyone else in Scotland has to offer. 

Fair enough you have a point if players are moving to us at 18/19 and need game time which they wont be get.

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3 hours ago, TheScarf said:

Liam Polworth, Ryan Christie, Jamie Duff, Nick Ross have all played and and some scored for their country at under 21 level.

We also produced Graeme Shinnie for you guys too.  County have no one of that calibre.  There's my position to slag  them.

Jamie Duff, 1 under 21 cap, 2 seasons then off to Elgin, Nick Ross, 1 under 21 cap, Polworth and Christie I'll give you but given both their fathers played for you and they lived in Inverness it didn't take a lot to find them, Shinnie you signed as a 17 year old for the first team squad, not really a product of your youth system. Still if you just want to slag us fill your boots.

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44 minutes ago, Staggie52 said:

Jamie Duff, 1 under 21 cap, 2 seasons then off to Elgin, Nick Ross, 1 under 21 cap, Polworth and Christie I'll give you but given both their fathers played for you and they lived in Inverness it didn't take a lot to find them, Shinnie you signed as a 17 year old for the first team squad, not really a product of your youth system. Still if you just want to slag us fill your boots.

It's a lot more than County have ever done.  Care to give us some examples of players that have come through? Tony Dingwall I'll give you.  But a few sub appearances isn't much to shout about.

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28 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

It's a lot more than County have ever done.  Care to give us some examples of players that have come through? Tony Dingwall I'll give you.  But a few sub appearances isn't much to shout about.

5 isn't a lot, one was a one season wonder, one didn't come through your youth season, that make 3. Against that I'd give you Don Cowie and McKay Steven, could throw in Alex Cooper who we sold to Liverpool for &100.00 when he was 16 and had a better career than Duff. But, I'm not really bothered, if you want to bask in the glory of your youth development and it helps you slag us as I said fill your boots.

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2 hours ago, Contra said:

Its really not though, the idea that going to a bigger club as a young boy ruins your career is simply false. Kids choosing to go to Celtic at a young age are making the right decision they are training in the best facilities with the best coaches in country. Our youth set up and partnership with St Ninians is light-years ahead of what anyone else in Scotland has to offer. 

Fair enough you have a point if players are moving to us at 18/19 and need game time which they wont be get.

Nah, not buying that at all. Take Shinnie who got about 120 Premiership games with ICT so Aberdeen were getting a complete player.

Christie, Mackay-Steven and Scott Allan are three I can think of whose careers have stalled although tbf Deila bought them and Rodgers doesn't seem to fancy them. Armstrong is another who is marginal as he's at least had a bit of game time but how much did it weaken Utd losing him. You're going to keep buying players from overseas while these guys get cameo appearances in the domestic cups, so effectively all you're doing is weakening the opposition. Losing Christie seriously weakened ICT creatively then we had to take stick the other week for not having a go at yours.

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1 minute ago, The Mantis said:

Nah, not buying that at all. Take Shinnie who got about 120 Premiership games with ICT so Aberdeen were getting a complete player.

Christie and Scott Allan are two I can think of whose careers have stalled although tbf Deila bought them and Rodgers doesn't seem to fancy them. Armstrong is another who is marginal as he's at least had a bit of game time but how much did it weaken Utd losing him. You're going to keep buying players from overseas while these guys get cameo appearances in the domestic cups, so effectively all you're doing is weakening the opposition. Losing Christie seriously weakened ICT creatively then we had to take stick the other week for not having a go at yours.

If you read my post again you'll see I agree with you on that point. 

 

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The fact Caley and County fans are arguing over the successes of Jamie Duff and Gary Mackay-Steven show how much of a joke the Highland Academy is.

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1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

The fact Caley and County fans are arguing over the successes of Jamie Duff and Gary Mackay-Steven show how much of a joke the Highland Academy is.

One's trying to prove success, I'm a bit more realistic, the only real success for us was Don Cowie, he gave us some good years, went on to play for his country and at a higher level. McKay Steven left to pursue glory at 16 and never quite got there. The Highland Academy is a useful facility, will County ever bring on many first team players through it? Doubtful, there's not a big enough population to guarantee it, but we might strike lucky from time to time.

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This debate over how good Ross County's youth set-up has been historically is a bit of a red herring.  Under the Adams administration (by which I mean George as well as Derek), the first team was the main priority and promoting young players wasn't really a consideration at all.  Therefore, the youth set-up wasn't treated particularly seriously by the club.

However, since the Adams' left, the level of investment and importance attached to the U20s (and below) has increased considerably.  We've been bringing in promising teenagers from elsewhere in the country to supplement the locals (because we are working with a small catchment area in population terms) and have more coaches working with them.

The strong start to the season by our U20s is testament to this.  Under Stewart Kettlewell we've led the table for most of the season so far and are now third - four points behind Hibs with two games in hand.  Compare this to the third from bottom finish in last season's U20s table and you can see how quickly things are changing.

It's still too early to see the effects of this change in culture in the first team.  Tony Dingwall and Greg Morrison (both of whom were already there pre-revamp) are getting the occasional game, but given how well the U20s are doing, we would hope to see one or two more getting a chance before too long.

So, yes, in the past 15 years only really Don Cowie and Gary Mackay-Steven have gone on to bigger and better things after coming through our youth system.  However, we're clearly now much better placed to develop more players than we were even a couple of years ago.  I'd say the facilities and coaching seems to be in place to justify a place in this new "elite" set-up if it happens (which isn't to say I think it necessarily should).

As an interesting aside, Partick Thistle finished one place below County in the U20s table last season (16th of 17) and now sit second (one point ahead of us, but having played a game more).  They're another team who, with the aid of outside investment from the Weirs, seem to be turning their youth set-up around quite quickly.

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Personally Aberdeen should not be rewarded in this manner.

We apparently have a good youth set-up with good prospects coming through. But we don't know for definite as none of them ever get a decent chance to break through. Surely one of the measures for ensuring you get into the proposed elite group or whatever it will be called, is to be able to demonstrate a certain percentage of your first team squad has come through your youth program (recently) sadly we just don't have this at moment.

It should be a meritocracy not based on who has done the most favours and breaks bread the most with the the big wigs/blazers.

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On 30/11/2016 at 01:45, Enigma said:

The thing that irks me most about this is it seriously disincentives clubs outside the elite 8 from investing in a youth set up.

That is true - I read an article recently about Brentford, who have shut their academy because they analysed it as a waste of money.  I can see Scottish clubs thinking "why should we bother investing if other teams are getting more help?" and shutting it down.  The vast majority of youth players get released anyway.

 

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On 29 November 2016 at 15:11, Contra said:

Our youth set up and partnership with St Ninians is light-years ahead of what anyone else in Scotland has to offer. 

Is it any different to the SFA schools program, or what United did at St John's in Dundee before that?

Genuine question, btw.

1 hour ago, ICTChris said:

That is true - I read an article recently about Brentford, who have shut their academy because they analysed it as a waste of money.  I can see Scottish clubs thinking "why should we bother investing if other teams are getting more help?" and shutting it down.  The vast majority of youth players get released anyway.

 

I can remember Jim McLean, of all people, saying clubs of United'd size should scrap their youth set-up and just sign young players released from the Old Firm's academies.

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The Old Firm already get the first dibs on the best youth players anyway, especially in the central belt. 

Parents practically force their kids to join the Old Firm youth set ups because they see it as a badge of honour to say my kid plays for Celtic/Rangers instead of thinking about their development. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Gibby82 said:

Is it any different to the SFA schools program, or what United did at St John's in Dundee before that?

Genuine question, btw.

I can remember Jim McLean, of all people, saying clubs of United'd size should scrap their youth set-up and just sign young players released from the Old Firm's academies.

 

That course of action would be fine before there was guaranteed compensation. £200,000 for Charlie Telfer should tell you how important it is for each club to produce players from their own youth system.

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That is true - I read an article recently about Brentford, who have shut their academy because they analysed it as a waste of money.  I can see Scottish clubs thinking "why should we bother investing if other teams are getting more help?" and shutting it down.  The vast majority of youth players get released anyway.

 



Exactly why should a club like, say, St. Johnstone even bother with a youth set up when any youth of talent will be signed up to the elite 8.
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