6 year rebuilding plan like Berti Vogts suggestion

[NewHope]

2 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

You've omitted that McFadden was in the dog house after the Far East tour in June, which was his first cap, for drunkenness and missing his flight home. So he was hardly likely to be brought back in for the opening qualifier in September and put in the starting XI.

"He is ze cheeky boy."

[theoriginalhedge]

1 hour ago, pub car king said:

The Scottish media distrust everyone outside the circle of trust that is the old boys network.

 

Sadly it is not only the media. The establishment seem to rely on the Largs mafia to guide them into obscurity. 

Never mind though , Jim Duffy is waiting in the wings to turn things around when Chesney runs out of ignorant quips. 

[Paco]

1 hour ago, HibeeJibee said:

To suggest that losing in Georgia, particularly given the position we were in, isn't bad enough to rank in this company is ludicrous.

Georgia are Pot 6, FFS.

I'd totally blanked that out of my mind, to be entirely honest. Clearly a howler of a result, although Georgia were our Pot 5 team at the time.

Still, the rest of it is still true. Vogts is one of our worst ever managers, only Burley really giving him a run for his money that I can think of. Any revisionism is just outright wrong. 

[Officer Barbrady]

Burley was awful, of that there is no doubt. Levein and Vogts, however, were given far longer to reign even more misery over two wrecked campaigns.

 

As far as i saw at the time, our standing at GB's appointment was our best since the England playoff defeat. This was reflected in the very quick nature of events turning against him. At that stage, people within the game and those outside, seemed satisfied we were on the road 'back' after running Italy and France close...and with a fairly straightforward 3 way barney with Holland and Norway in the WC group ahead. Plenty to look forward to. If only.

 

It was a witchhunt, and absolutely rightly so. Both Avril and Berti were excused a bit longer because they kept us competitive for the first campaign, which perplexes me further still about Strachan pulling their strings so readily. 

[Gordopolis]

Burley was awful, of that there is no doubt. Levein and Vogts, however, were given far longer to reign even more misery over two wrecked campaigns.

 

As far as i saw at the time, our standing at GB's appointment was our best since the England playoff defeat. This was reflected in the very quick nature of events turning against him. At that stage, people within the game and those outside, seemed satisfied we were on the road 'back' after running Italy and France close...and with a fairly straightforward 3 way barney with Holland and Norway in the WC group ahead. Plenty to look forward to. If only.

 

It was a witchhunt, and absolutely rightly so. Both Avril and Berti were excused a bit longer because they kept us competitive for the first campaign, which perplexes me further still about Strachan pulling their strings so readily. 

Good summary of the 2008 heightened expectations then boot in the baws that quickly followed
There were hour long specials on the radio then (before the wheels came off) with Chick young etc asking each other 'why are we so good'...

I liked Burley as a person and a manager but simply couldn't stand the fact that he made such a hash of the 2010 campaign with all the same - limited but effective if used correctly - players.

I guess we're hoping for the reverse now - to get rid of a seemingly underperforming, disillusioned Strachan and bring in someone who can spark us up again and organise us to overachieve in the hope of some short/medium term success (with a military coup against the SFA as the long term strategy)

[pandarilla]

Good summary of the 2008 heightened expectations then boot in the baws that quickly followed
There were hour long specials on the radio then (before the wheels came off) with Chick young etc asking each other 'why are we so good'...

I liked Burley as a person and a manager but simply couldn't stand the fact that he made such a hash of the 2010 campaign with all the same - limited but effective if used correctly - players.

I guess we're hoping for the reverse now - to get rid of a seemingly underperforming, disillusioned Strachan and bring in someone who can spark us up again and organise us to overachieve in the hope of some short/medium term success (with a military coup against the SFA as the long term strategy)

Outstanding post.

[54_and_counting]

1 hour ago, Gordopolis said:

Good summary of the 2008 heightened expectations then boot in the baws that quickly followed
There were hour long specials on the radio then (before the wheels came off) with Chick young etc asking each other 'why are we so good'...

I liked Burley as a person and a manager but simply couldn't stand the fact that he made such a hash of the 2010 campaign with all the same - limited but effective if used correctly - players.

I guess we're hoping for the reverse now - to get rid of a seemingly underperforming, disillusioned Strachan and bring in someone who can spark us up again and organise us to overachieve in the hope of some short/medium term success (with a military coup against the SFA as the long term strategy)

wont matter what manager scotland bring in, they will be too scared to overhaul the squad and get rid of the consistent failures because the fanbase cannot agree on whats best to support, spark us up and get a couple of decent results, then the inevitable pressure kicks in and the multiple time failures do what they do best

[Officer Barbrady]

Outstanding is over-egging the pudding, by Christ. 

 

To simply put it down to 'hoping' for a change, is ignoring many of the reasons for the current state. Our recent results would bother me a lot less if we competed, and looked like there was a gameplan, or obvious style of play. Even accounting for our limitations, approaching games like Lithuania or Skovakia in the same way an England or Germany (ie ceding the ball, playing a higher tempo, high pressing game based on attempting to score with as few touches as possible) would undoubtedly imo yeild a certain improvement immediately. We'd be more likely to win the games that this succeeds in, than we would by simply guessing how good teams are by the pot. We're clearly no good at taking games to the poorest of teams, so why are we assuming that we can change dependant on opponents? 

 

Watching Scotland right now is the definition of waiting to die. I'd genuinely have no issue seeing us go down to Lithuania or Georgia or whoever, if we did so hitting posts, crossbars, forcing saves and losing a half decent game of football. The defeat in Kaunas in 2003 was like this, the two in Tbilisi were fucking well not. And this is partly down to the arrogance and snobbery which pollutes every segment of the game. Players turning in crap, listless games, because the manager won't drop you anyway, and fans and media wrongly assuming we should swat daft wee teams aside. Why would dropping into the lower pots be more of an issue than losing games to the sort of rubbish we have lost to, in the completely misguided belief we should be beating them? 

[Malcolm Malcolm]

7 hours ago, NewHope said:

"He is ze cheeky boy."

"Touch my bum

This is life."

[Dink]

and a friendly draw away to Spain which I really don’t remember but apparently happened.

It got abandoned after 60 minutes when the floodlights went out after the power station got got by lightning. The rain that day was the heaviest I've ever experienced.

We went 1 up through Stevie Crawford (?) and had a couple more great chance to extend our lead. By the time that the game was abandoned Spain were well on top and we'd have struggled to hold on to the draw. It was still a pretty good performance, however.

[NewHope]

12 hours ago, Malcolm Malcolm said:

"Touch my bum

This is life."

What a time that was to be alive.

[Gordopolis]

2 hours ago, Dink said:

 

It got abandoned after 60 minutes when the floodlights went out after the power station got got by lightning. The rain that day was the heaviest I've ever experienced.

We went 1 up through Stevie Crawford (?) and had a couple more great chance to extend our lead. By the time that the game was abandoned Spain were well on top and we'd have struggled to hold on to the draw. It was still a pretty good performance, however.

 

Was it not McFadden who scored for us - direct from a corner IIRC?

[Gordopolis]

15 hours ago, Officer Barbrady said:

Outstanding is over-egging the pudding, by Christ an understatement, to say the least. 

FTFY 

[HibeeJibee]

 

[King Kebab]

Seem to recall it was one of the first games we played on a Friday night, also seem to remember we had one perhaps two goals disallowed as well!!!
Also remember somebody taking a kick at Nigel Quashie and Nigel sort of chased the guy and booted him up the arse, it might have been Alonso!![emoji23]

[mcfadden78]

4 minutes ago, King Kebab said:

Seem to recall it was one of the first games we played on a Friday night, also seem to remember we had one perhaps two goals disallowed as well!!!
Also remember somebody taking a kick at Nigel Quashie and Nigel sort of chased the guy and booted him up the arse, it might have been Alonso!!

Was probably one of the best games we played under Vogts. We were brilliant to watch. I don't know why I remember but seem to remember Stevie Crawford missing a really good chance one on one with the keeper (can't remember exactly). Think it was one of several chances. It was a great performance and still a good result despite the lights going out

[HibeeJibee]

We recorded some good results under Vogts... beating the Netherlands at home in the playoff most obviously; drawing 1-1 with Germany at home and giving them a scare away; and some of the friendlies - drawing in Spain; wins v Canada and Trinidad & Tobago; I remember a good performance in Norway when Darren Fletcher made his debut.


Looking at Strachan now - getting unanimous SFA support and widespread backing in the media and 'Scottish football fraternity' - emphasises how much harder Vogts had it, though.

Vogts had to rebuild a squad from scratch off a pretty meagre pool... got us to 2nd and the playoff... won the first leg... made a sticky start to the next campaign. Result - hounded out.

Strachan inherited a better situation with a stronger pool (although no question still in need of plenty work)... finished 4th... made a sticky start to the next campaign. Result - carry on.


Vogts hadn't helped himself by his philosophy of playing every friendly, trying as many players possible, and not focusing on results - but there is no question Strachan's face 'fits' and Vogts face didn't.

[SpoonTon]

1 hour ago, HibeeJibee said:

We recorded some good results under Vogts... beating the Netherlands at home in the playoff most obviously; drawing 1-1 with Germany at home and giving them a scare away; and some of the friendlies - drawing in Spain; wins v Canada and Trinidad & Tobago; I remember a good performance in Norway when Darren Fletcher made his debut.


Looking at Strachan now - getting unanimous SFA support and widespread backing in the media and 'Scottish football fraternity' - emphasises how much harder Vogts had it, though.

Vogts had to rebuild a squad from scratch off a pretty meagre pool... got us to 2nd and the playoff... won the first leg... made a sticky start to the next campaign. Result - hounded out.

Strachan inherited a better situation with a stronger pool (although no question still in need of plenty work)... finished 4th... made a sticky start to the next campaign. Result - carry on.


Vogts hadn't helped himself by his philosophy of playing every friendly, trying as many players possible, and not focusing on results - but there is no question Strachan's face 'fits' and Vogts face didn't.

Vogts came in with Scotland as second seeds in a group which had no team who were serious contenders for second place. It was an absolute gimme of a group. The only teams that Lithuania defeated in the 2002, 2004, and 2006 campaigns were Scotland, Faroe Islands and San Marino. The Faroe Islands got their only point of that campaign against us. Germany also draw against Lithuania and Iceland in that group. At Euro 2004, Germany drew with Latvia. It was the perfect group for Vogts, but he didn't have to build the squad from scratch - that's completely inaccurate. There were still good players in there. The Faroe Islands (123)-Lithuania (106)-Moldova (104) sequence of points dropped against minnows saw him rightly hounded out. There were bright spots in there, but I would argue that this only showed the potential that he was failing to get out of the squad on a regular basis. 

Of course, Strachan's Scotland drawing at home to the team ranked 125 in the world and losing the team ranked 147 in the world has been somewhat swept under the carpet by the media and the SFA. So while I disagree with what you have to say about Vogts, I completely agree about the different reactions. Strachan has led us to two truly horrific results in competitive matches - up there with anything we've suffered before. I'd say even worse than the draw in the Faroes and the loss in Lithuania under Vogts. Perhaps it's just a matter now of waiting for his Moldova moment...when do we play Malta again? 

 

[Thundermonkey]

I'm pretty certain that even under Burley and Levein, senior players were not leaving the pitch asking them where they had supposed to be playing.  That's precisely the claim Christian Dailly made near the end of Vogt's time in charge.

And Dailly seems to have been the one player you'd have thought would have had shown Berti the most loyalty.

[Officer Barbrady]

Well, in answer to that, in Berti's four best games (Iceland away, Germany x 2, and Holland at home), this did not seem to be an issue. The team actually functioned rather well, although still nowhere near enough, of course. When the shit hit the fan, though.....

 

Both Burley and Levein had moments like this. Burleys first qualifier involved passing the ball about in the fucking baking heat, while telling his players they didnt need to go chasing until they were too knackered to run around. Likewise CL in Prague, where his 4-6-0 was deemed surplus the minute the Czechs scored....and employing two strikers 'in midfield'!! Then substituting them, to go with Miller alone instead!! 

 

I'll never sleep tonight now, thanks a fucking lot!!