6 year rebuilding plan like Berti Vogts suggestion

[John Lambies Doos]

Last guy to get us to a play off with virtually the worst crop of players I've ever seen...
Kevin fukin kyle!!!
Nb fletch and mcfadean were just starting

[SpoonTon]

Kevin Kyle only actually played in one competitive match, the 2-2 draw against the Farie Islands. Paul Dickov and Scot Dobie also started that match. Steven Thompson and Stevie Crawford came off the bench. He ignored Kenny Miller, who was playing well down at Wolves and would score 26 goals that season. He also ignored James McFadden, who was impressing at Motherwell and would score 19 goals that season. That was the problem with the guy - he showed no real eye for talent. We had the 2 strikers who would make the biggest impact over the next decade, and were playing as well as any Scottish striker for their clubs, and he picks Scot Dobie and Kevin Kyle. He was an absolute loonball.

[HibeeJibee]

You've omitted that McFadden was in the dog house after the Far East tour in June, which was his first cap, for drunkenness and missing his flight home. So he was hardly likely to be brought back in for the opening qualifier in September and put in the starting XI.

For all that the result in the Faroe Islands was poor, it should be remembered that it was Vogts first competitive game - rebuilding a squad which had failed to reach Euro 2000 or WC 2002, had seen a numbers of retirements and for which Craig Brown had brought through hardly any new young players - and we beat Iceland 2-0 in the next qualifier. Subtle factors.

[theoriginalhedge]

On 11/15/2016 at 09:27, forameus said:

Unfortunately there's no point putting in these kinds of long term plans.  They'll only be reviewed a few years into it and scrapped when they're not getting results quicker than expected.  

No matter what we do though, we can't just do the really stupid thing that some seem to suggest and just "play the youth".  It's all very noble saying we can forget about results for a few years, but 1) a lot of fans won't accept that, and why should they?  Who would buy tickets knowing that the team is forgetting about results? and 2) FIFA/UEFA won't forget about results, and then once we've blooded in these imaginary youngsters, we'll be a pot 5 side, making it even harder for them to claw their way back.

The solution is somewhere in the middle.  Pick the best 18 or so players available consistently, without question.  Then fill the rest of the squad with carefully selected players for the future.  If they're good enough, by all means fast-track them and get them involved, but just having them in squads is fine if they're not ready.

And play fucking friendlies!

How does anyone know they are not ready if they don't play ?   Is that not what friendlies are for ? Your solution in the middle is what we are alledgedly doing just now but Chesney seems to have forgotten about the youth. 

No , I think we have to bite the bullet and do something a bit more radical rather than just plod along worrying about pots .  The OP has it about right. 

[ayrmad]

6 minutes ago, theoriginalhedge said:

How does anyone know they are not ready if they don't play ?   Is that not what friendlies are for ? Your solution in the middle is what we are alledgedly doing just now but Chesney seems to have forgotten about the youth. 

No , I think we have to bite the bullet and do something a bit more radical rather than just plod along worrying about pots .  The OP has it about right. 

Interestingly, Michael O'Neill stated on Sportsound that he did not have the ability to see a player and know whether they were up to international football or not, it was a matter of putting players into his system and seeing what happens, pretty much how I think we should approach it rather than continuing with players we can all see aren't up to it, I'm also a believer in doing this with youth players as well.

[forameus]

6 minutes ago, theoriginalhedge said:

How does anyone know they are not ready if they don't play ?   Is that not what friendlies are for ? Your solution in the middle is what we are alledgedly doing just now but Chesney seems to have forgotten about the youth. 

No , I think we have to bite the bullet and do something a bit more radical rather than just plod along worrying about pots .  The OP has it about right. 

Okay, what radical thing do we have to do?

And he hasn't forgotten about youth.  He's given several younger players the opportunity.  Ever think he and the coaching team might just not rate the younger players, and doesn't really think he needs to put them into a friendly to judge their readiness?  It's not as if our U21s are burning the world down, is it?  Whether he's right or wrong for thinking that is subjective, but I don't think he's far wrong.  I'd prefer a more measured approach rather than a Vogts like "gotta-cap-em-all" approach in the hope that some of the shit sticks to the wall.

[Officer Barbrady]

5 minutes ago, theoriginalhedge said:

How does anyone know they are not ready if they don't play ?   Is that not what friendlies are for ? Your solution in the middle is what we are alledgedly doing just now but Chesney seems to have forgotten about the youth. 

No , I think we have to bite the bullet and do something a bit more radical rather than just plod along worrying about pots .  The OP has it about right. 

Don't dare question the importance of the pots, that's just crazy talk. Don't you know it should predetermine pretty much everything without kicking a ball?? Lunacy. 

[theoriginalhedge]

5 minutes ago, forameus said:

Okay, what radical thing do we have to do?

And he hasn't forgotten about youth.  He's given several younger players the opportunity.  Ever think he and the coaching team might just not rate the younger players, and doesn't really think he needs to put them into a friendly to judge their readiness?  It's not as if our U21s are burning the world down, is it?  Whether he's right or wrong for thinking that is subjective, but I don't think he's far wrong.  I'd prefer a more measured approach rather than a Vogts like "gotta-cap-em-all" approach in the hope that some of the shit sticks to the wall.

The OP gave a sensible suggestion. 

He gave Oliver Burke one chance in a game where the midfield were overlooked and played him in a position he was not familiar with .......defensive midfield.  Had he been playing at Wembley he probably would have shone as the team were set up more attacking.   If that is giving our youth a chance then sorry we are definitely fucked and be as well chucking it now and not wasting any more effort on it .

[Gunz]

Pick the best players available to us and whilst gradually brining youngsters through. Look at Hutton/Paterson. Before the campaign I would have told Hutton he is still number 1 but in friendlies and perhaps the smaller games such as Malta Paterson will play to give him some experience.

A good few players have came through over the year but the problem is they have failed to make the final grade. Fleck, Feruz, McCabe, Wilsom were players that looked good at youth level and have failed to make that jump up. That's the concern for me. 

If any plan it should be to improve the standard of coaching. If the standard of coaching is improved then the standard of the players should improve. 

[SpoonTon]

1 hour ago, HibeeJibee said:

You've omitted that McFadden was in the dog house after the Far East tour in June, which was his first cap, for drunkenness and missing his flight home. So he was hardly likely to be brought back in for the opening qualifier in September and put in the starting XI.

For all that the result in the Faroe Islands was poor, it should be remembered that it was Vogts first competitive game - rebuilding a squad which had failed to reach Euro 2000 or WC 2002, had seen a numbers of retirements and for which Craig Brown had brought through hardly any new young players - and we beat Iceland 2-0 in the next qualifier. Subtle factors.

As you say, McFadden was in the dog house for missing his flight home. But if he was punished for being drunk on that tour, we would have struggled to put a team together for the Faroes match! So I never actually thought there was any need for a big deal to be made - and that was an opinion that many shared.

The rebuilding a squad thing is wrong-headed, though. I wish we could get away from that type of thinking. There was the need for a little bit of freshening up - but the idea going around that the whole thing needed ripped up and started again was wrong. There was a small enough number of older players, like Tom Boyd, Matt Elliot, and Craig Burley, whose time was up. But you can't just through in young players who aren't good enough just because an idea exists that youth is the only way forward. Kevin Kyle was given a starting place in that team despite only having a couple of English fourth tier goals to his name. We were lucky that Vogts didn't try to force that approach in competitive matches going forward, but unfortunate that he had already forced out players like David Weir. We had plenty of experienced players who were still good enough, Brown had just clung on to the likes of Boyd too long instead of playing the likes of McNamara. All we needed was a select number of younger players to fit in wish the decent number of more experienced players we had. Vogts' seemed to understand that in terms of the competitive matches after the Faroes game, to an extent, but he simply wasn't up to the job. 

[The Moonster]

16 hours ago, SpoonTon said:

Kevin Kyle only actually played in one competitive match, the 2-2 draw against the Farie Islands. Paul Dickov and Scot Dobie also started that match. Steven Thompson and Stevie Crawford came off the bench. He ignored Kenny Miller, who was playing well down at Wolves and would score 26 goals that season. He also ignored James McFadden, who was impressing at Motherwell and would score 19 goals that season. That was the problem with the guy - he showed no real eye for talent. We had the 2 strikers who would make the biggest impact over the next decade, and were playing as well as any Scottish striker for their clubs, and he picks Scot Dobie and Kevin Kyle. He was an absolute loonball.

Absolutely this. A fair bit of revisionism going on in here, trying make Berti Vogts out to be some sort of genius that planted the seed for many top Scotland players for years to come.  He just capped everyone who was remotely Scottish, he was bound to get a few of them right.

[kenny131]

Berti Vogts won the world cup as a manager and a player only for us scots to declare he is not up to the job,  as we are serial cup winners. Barking mad in my opinion the guy had the worst group of players to choose from in our history yet still managed to get us  90 minutes from qualifying for a tourny. 

Nobody has been anywhere near getting us there since even with far better players to choose from. We can lament the faroes game but they are in a long list of catastrophes. If vogts had the squad we have now we would have made the euros in the summer.

The papers witch hunted him because he was not scottish.

[The Moonster]

6 minutes ago, kenny131 said:

Berti Vogts won the world cup as a manager and a player only for us scots to declare he is not up to the job,  as we are serial cup winners. Barking mad in my opinion the guy had the worst group of players to choose from in our history yet still managed to get us  90 minutes from qualifying for a tourny. 

Nobody has been anywhere near getting us there since even with far better players to choose from. We can lament the faroes game but they are in a long list of catastrophes. If vogts had the squad we have now we would have made the euros in the summer.

The papers witch hunted him because he was not scottish.

If you think the squad Berti had to call on is worse than today's squad then I reckon we can file your opinion next to "barking mad". Berti Vogts has not won the World Cup as manager. He's won the Euros, which is literally the only good thing he's ever done in management, and he done that with a very, very good German team.

If he's such a genius then why were his jobs after leaving Scotland the Nigerian and Azerbaijani national team coach? If he was such a genius why was he sacked after a year in the job at Leverkusen? If he's such a genius why was he bumped from the Azerbaijan job after a string of poor results which caused protests and demonstrations to get rid of him? He's a "technical adviser" for the USA right now, whatever the f**k that entails. The evidence would say we were quite right to question his credentials as a manager.

[Paco]

Berti Vogts drew in the Faroes, got beat in Lithuania and drew in Moldova in competitive matches. Strachan's only comparable result to any of those is the recent draw with Lithuania.

Additionally he drew 0-0 at home to Slovenia, got beaten at home to Norway, scraped by Lithuania and Iceland at home to barely make a play-off in the easiest group of all time, and in friendlies saw us beaten by countries such as South Africa, Nigeria, South Korea, Denmark, Romania, Austria, Ireland, Hungary and we were walloped by Wales and France. He also drew with New Zealand. 

In fact, looking at his record, his only credible results were a home draw with Germany who were already through, a home win against Holland where we obviously lost 6-0 in the second leg, and a friendly draw away to Spain which I really don’t remember but apparently happened.

Vogts was an unmitigated disaster, regardless of circumstance. The only thing you could say in his defence is the treatment by the media was appalling. That is literally it. He was horseshit. 

[forameus]

22 minutes ago, kenny131 said:

Berti Vogts won the world cup as a manager and a player only for us scots to declare he is not up to the job,  as we are serial cup winners. Barking mad in my opinion the guy had the worst group of players to choose from in our history yet still managed to get us  90 minutes from qualifying for a tourny. 

Nobody has been anywhere near getting us there since even with far better players to choose from. We can lament the faroes game but they are in a long list of catastrophes. If vogts had the squad we have now we would have made the euros in the summer.

The papers witch hunted him because he was not scottish.

He wasn't really up to that particular job at that particular time.  What he did previously is largely irrelevant.  Especially when you've made up that he won the World Cup.  He wasn't as bad as people made out, but he wasn't some jesus figure.  It's just more revisionist history.  

On the pure point of foreign managers, fair enough.  There is a certain distrust of anyone who isn't Scottish, which is pretty laughable.

[pub car king]

The Scottish media distrust everyone outside the circle of trust that is the old boys network.

 

[HibeeJibee]

4 minutes ago, Paco said:

Berti Vogts drew in the Faroes, got beat in Lithuania and drew in Moldova in competitive matches. Strachan's only comparable result to any of those is the recent draw with Lithuania.

To suggest that losing in Georgia, particularly given the position we were in, isn't bad enough to rank in this company is ludicrous.

Georgia are Pot 6, FFS.

[SpoonTon]

15 minutes ago, kenny131 said:

Berti Vogts won the world cup as a manager and a player only for us scots to declare he is not up to the job,  as we are serial cup winners. Barking mad in my opinion the guy had the worst group of players to choose from in our history yet still managed to get us  90 minutes from qualifying for a tourny. 

Nobody has been anywhere near getting us there since even with far better players to choose from. We can lament the faroes game but they are in a long list of catastrophes. If vogts had the squad we have now we would have made the euros in the summer.

The papers witch hunted him because he was not scottish.

Vogts never won the World Cup as a manager, he was assistant when West Germany won the World Cup. He did win Euro 2006 though. He had a mixed record with Germany with some real success, but has clearly been uncomfortable outside of that set-up. He was sacked at Leverkusen, had a pretty dismal time with Kuwait, and went on to have unpopular stints as manager of Nigeria and Azerbaijan. He's now technical advisor for a US side that were just beaten 4-0 by Costa Rica. 

We were 90 minutes away from qualifying (twice) for Euro 2008. 

There is no reason to think that Vogts would have us qualify for a tournament now. 

[SpoonTon]

1 minute ago, HibeeJibee said:

To suggest that losing in Georgia, particularly given the position we were in, isn't bad enough to rank in this company is ludicrous.

Georgia are Pot 6, FFS.

I agree. Vogts' hasn't been alone in that type of failure, although I suspect he's the only one to do it twice in one campaign. To follow that up with another one at the start of the next campaign was the reason that he was sacked. I'm really surprised that Strachan has survived the two so close to one another. If you compare us with Ireland, these silly results have been a major difference between our qualification records - we have had one in every campaign. 

[BFTD]

I was dubious about Berti before a match was played, as I'd read that he never managed to win over the German public, even after winning Euro 96. For some reason, they still wanted shot of him. Don't remember why, but it wasn't really a good sign.

Anyway, our journey to the play-offs with him in charge was entirely based on our good seeding and decent draw. Iceland, Lithuania, and the Faroes were all inferior sides to the ones kicking about these days, and we still only just scraped into second. The first leg win against the Dutch was incredible considering how poor we'd looked until then.

Even with the more capable teams they have these days, can you imagine how chuffed we'd all be to land that qualifying group now?