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37 minutes ago, Zetterlund said:

No double standards to see here, no siree.

 

The link to the wsj article doesn't work, but he has a point, given their resources and education Russia should be a successful hi tech economy. Instead the resources are plundered by a few people and squirreled away abroad instead of being invested at home. Also, unlike Trump he's referring to the economy, not the people. 

Edited by welshbairn
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McCain did sing a song about bombing Iran though. TCK’s not really a millions off with his point tbf either. The absence of critique over Obama’s drone strike policy from the centre was quite apparent and a lot of the current criticism of Trump’s comments come down to tone over anything else. There was a fair whack of criticism of Obama on here tho.

Russia should be a hi-tech economic but unfortunately the capitalists got their grubby paws on it.

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13 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

The link to the wsj article doesn't work, but he has a point, given their resources and education Russia should be a successful hi tech economy. Instead the resources are plundered by a few people and squirreled away abroad instead of being invested at home. Also, unlike Trump he's referring to the economy, not the people. 

He literally said it's not a proper country. It's just one example of public figures speaking out suddenly all concerned and respectful of all nations when previous comments and attitudes suggest otherwise. There are plenty of examples of Russia being called a shithole, hellhole or worse by prominent figures with no suggestion of racism directed at them. This is in no way a defence of Trump's moronic comments, just pointing out  the double standards evident among some of his critics.

And that's not even getting into the hypocrisy of the inherently racist interventionist foreign policy.

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21 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

McCain did sing a song about bombing Iran though. TCK’s not really a millions off with his point tbf either. The absence of critique over Obama’s drone strike policy from the centre was quite apparent and a lot of the current criticism of Trump’s comments come down to tone over anything else. There was a fair whack of criticism of Obama on here tho.

Russia should be a hi-tech economic but unfortunately the capitalists got their grubby paws on it.

There would have been a whole lot more death and destruction around the World if McCain had won the election for sure. Obama's greatest act imo was refusing to go to full scale war against Assad after the chemical attack despite immense pressure from all sides. There is something abhorrent about controlling drones dropping bombs from an office in Virginia, but the alternative, if you think the targets are dangerous and intending harm and need to be stopped, would bring far more civilian death and destruction. 

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There would have been a whole lot more death and destruction around the World if McCain had won the election for sure. Obama's greatest act imo was refusing to go to full scale war against Assad after the chemical attack despite immense pressure from all sides. There is something abhorrent about controlling drones dropping bombs from an office in Virginia, but the alternative, if you think the targets are dangerous and intending harm and need to be stopped, would bring far more civilian death and destruction. 


What I think the issue is here is the psychological cost of drone warfare. It’s been repeated time and again that the constant presence of drones in regions, the double strike policy and the seeming US indifference to the collateral damage (a horrible turn of phrase, it’s wilful murder) caused by drone strikes is psychologically destroying an entire generation of people in some sections of the world. I don’t think boots on the ground are necessarily better and intervention in any sense has had a debatable effect but nobody’s going to stop sympathising with radical terrorism when their home is subjected to the constant buzz of possible death in the skies.
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The drone program almost certainly worsens the security situation both in the countries they operate and back in the US & Europe. It's one of the most abhorrent creations of modern times imo and I'm shocked that it's legal (not that that usually stops the US abroad). It has never been about security though, just another branch of the lucrative military industry. 

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Plenty of people were calling for that amongst the right.

That was primarily because he was black though......


Sorry, because of legitimate concerns that he may not have been a natural born citizen, borne out of the utmost respect for the office of president.....
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5 hours ago, Zetterlund said:

The drone program almost certainly worsens the security situation both in the countries they operate and back in the US & Europe. It's one of the most abhorrent creations of modern times imo and I'm shocked that it's legal (not that that usually stops the US abroad). It has never been about security though, just another branch of the lucrative military industry. 

The technology allows them to do these things with little scrutiny because it makes it a bit abstract. It would be given a completely different level of scrutiny if the US military was having to use manned aircraft for all these missions.

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The technology allows them to do these things with little scrutiny because it makes it a bit abstract. It would be given a completely different level of scrutiny if the US military was having to use manned aircraft for all these missions.

Good point

Although it leaves open the question of whether that’s because technology has moved forward or because protocols surrounding its use haven’t.


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18 hours ago, welshbairn said:

There would have been a whole lot more death and destruction around the World if McCain had won the election for sure. Obama's greatest act imo was refusing to go to full scale war against Assad after the chemical attack despite immense pressure from all sides. There is something abhorrent about controlling drones dropping bombs from an office in Virginia, but the alternative, if you think the targets are dangerous and intending harm and need to be stopped, would bring far more civilian death and destruction. 

I'm not sure there is a huge difference between current drone technology and traditional "manned" air strikes in this respect. The pilot of a F-16, travelling over mach 1 at 20,000 ft is over their target for a few seconds and probably sees very, very little of it. The weapons they use are largely the same as well. That pilot arguably has as small a connection with their target as any drone pilot who actually has a much better view.  

What really sets it apart is persistence, and the shock value. A drone doesn't make the same amount of noise as a fighter jet will, it's far more sudden when the missile hits. The persistence comes with coverage. A drone is small and cheap and you can have far more, orbiting a given area for far longer than the number of missions you can sustain using heavy, fast jets.

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2 hours ago, renton said:

I'm not sure there is a huge difference between current drone technology and traditional "manned" air strikes in this respect. The pilot of a F-16, travelling over mach 1 at 20,000 ft is over their target for a few seconds and probably sees very, very little of it. The weapons they use are largely the same as well. That pilot arguably has as small a connection with their target as any drone pilot who actually has a much better view.  

What really sets it apart is persistence, and the shock value. A drone doesn't make the same amount of noise as a fighter jet will, it's far more sudden when the missile hits. The persistence comes with coverage. A drone is small and cheap and you can have far more, orbiting a given area for far longer than the number of missions you can sustain using heavy, fast jets.

Not to say I disagree, not least because I've (thankfully) no first-hand experience of either - but there might be a slight experential difference between firing from a fighter jet in that you're physically a lot closer to your target, and there would (presumably) be very different sensory inputs associated with it. Operating a fighting drone always strikes me as being a very cold, sterile process.

Edited by Thistle_do_nicely
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1 minute ago, Thistle_do_nicely said:

Not to say I disagree, not least because I've (thankfully) no first-hand experience of either - but there might be a slight experential difference between firing from a fighter jet in that you're physically a lot closer to your target, and there would (presumably) be very different sensory inputs associated with it. Operating a fighting drone always strikes me as being a very cold, sterile process.

But that's arguably more likely to help you do the job cleanly and accurately than if you're full of adrenaline and risking incoming fire.

I'd have thought that the significant difference in mindset isn't with the operator/pilot but with their senior commanders

Drones mean they can order missions with zero risk of having to write letters to widows, orphans and grieving mothers.

And while less widows, orphans and grieving mothers. is a good things it will mean that they're liable to order more missions. 

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The drone can circle much lower for long periods of time without being spotted, and can give better intelligence about potential "collateral damage". I agree about the effective isolation of the pilot from the battle or consequences, can't remember the last time a US pilot was killed in action.

Edited by welshbairn
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39 minutes ago, Thistle_do_nicely said:

Not to say I disagree, not least because I've (thankfully) no first-hand experience of either - but there might be a slight experential difference between firing from a fighter jet in that you're physically a lot closer to your target, and there would (presumably) be very different sensory inputs associated with it. Operating a fighting drone always strikes me as being a very cold, sterile process.

Me neither, but if you think about the cramped cockpit of a fighter, travelling near supersonic at a height of 10-20,000 ft above it's target, then it's not unreasonable to suggest a fair amount of  experential distance on the part of the pilot. They might be physically closer and feel a greater sense of threat due to being in a warzone (albeit most western operations since the Gulf have been performed over non defended airspace) but the lack of empathy engendered by that dislocation will still be apparent. If they have been called in by someone on the ground to hit a given set of co-ordinates, as opposed to a detailed briefing pre-flight as often happens, then they could know next to nothing about whatever it is they are bombing.

Obviously there are matters of degree at work, but I don't think Drone warfare is so different from where we are, or have been for a few decades. Actually, it maybe brings into sharper relief the sense of remote warfare, and the morality of that, which has been encroaching all along and we've normalised over generations.

Edited by renton
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