Should Hartley be sacked?

[mizfit]

Yes I can see it unfolding. Peter and Jimmy with a rescue plan. Rab Douglas and Steven Tweed as manager and assistant, Jocky as DOFO.

Jocky would be director of telt.

[Nizzy]

5 hours ago, Nizzy said:

 

 

Sounds like something Ludo would say.

 

 

2 hours ago, Ludo*1 said:

 

 

Does it, aye?

 

 

2 hours ago, Rugster said:

It most certainly does.

 

 

[RawB93]

31 minutes ago, AnAnInginAneAnA said:

Read a post on the other forum that I thought was pretty relevant and damning indictment of Hartley's time at Dundee, so I'll post it here.

 

I have never been a massive Hartley fan and have had major doubts about his position pretty much since the 6-2 game from United and at various times thought his time might be up. My view on his time in charge is this...

In Hartley's 2.5 years or so in charge - how many times have you walked away from a game thinking "We were brilliant today?". Off the top of my head 7 times. (3-1 v Motherwell & Killie in 2014, 4-0 v Killie, 4-0 v Hamilton, 5-2 & 3-1 v Ross County this year and 4-2 v Partick in January). 

For me, Hartley has piggybacked on GGH, Stewart & Hemmings for 2 years. Our defence has been constantly awful in his time in charge and what have any of our midfielders outwith Harkins contributed in that time? Absolutely nothing. No goals, minimal assists. In so many games (even the ones listed above) the 3 players mentioned pulled us through on their own with inidividual brilliance. The fact 2 players finished in SPFL team of the year last year and we finished 8th says it all. In games where these 3 guys didn't get going we took humpings. 6-2, 4-1, 3-0 from United, 5-0 & 6-0 from Celtic, 5-2 from Ross County, 4-0 from ICT, 4-0 from Rangers not to mention the cup disasters against Dunfermline, Peterhead and East Fife. Never once have I left a game and thought "wow, Hartley changed that game today with his tactics" or "That substitution from Hartley was spot on and made a huge difference."

People hark back to the admins and the bad old days and told us we were lucky to have PH, that he was the best manager we have had in years. I'm sorry but what other manager in our recent history has been afforded the luxury of 43 signings in 32 months? Or rip up the contracts of X amount of their own poor signings? Or been able to whisk players away to a state of the art foreign training camp every summer? 

The mask has now slipped. Now that his only 2 or 3 good signings have moved on he has been exposed as the tactically clueless fraudster that many on here suspected he was for nearly 2 years now. 

While I agree in part that he definitely doesn't have much tactical nous, how can anyone say he's piggybacked on signings he's made? It's his job to sign players for our team. When they do well, it's testament to him, not fortune. The joys those players brought to us at times last season wouldn't have happened had he not identified them as being good signings for our team. As for pre-season training camps abroad - why not? The funds are obviously there to make use of better facilities than we have in Dundee. You don't avoid doing that incase the team don't justify it by doing well that season - you do it in the hope it will help them do well that season. Looking back in hindsight and saying it wasn't worthwhile it's useless analysis.

For some of our fans it will never be good enough. How many times have we punted managers when we've been doing well? They're damned if they do and damned if they don't. 

[kevthedee]

He should get the next 2 games,he deserves that much if we f**k it up then he should get punted.

[Mr Gandosaur]

48 minutes ago, RawB93 said:

While I agree in part that he definitely doesn't have much tactical nous, how can anyone say he's piggybacked on signings he's made? It's his job to sign players for our team. When they do well, it's testament to him, not fortune. The joys those players brought to us at times last season wouldn't have happened had he not identified them as being good signings for our team. As for pre-season training camps abroad - why not? The funds are obviously there to make use of better facilities than we have in Dundee. You don't avoid doing that incase the team don't justify it by doing well that season - you do it in the hope it will help them do well that season. Looking back in hindsight and saying it wasn't worthwhile it's useless analysis.

For some of our fans it will never be good enough. How many times have we punted managers when we've been doing well? They're damned if they do and damned if they don't. 

The point I was trying to make was that of the 43 he has signed (Yup, 2 to 3 entire squads worth of players in 32 months - an average of 1.3 signings in every single month of his tenure)  2 or 3 have masked the fact that a vast majority of the rest of them have varied between average and shite. 

[Dee Man]

1 hour ago, AnAnInginAneAnA said:

Read a post on the other forum that I thought was pretty relevant and damning indictment of Hartley's time at Dundee, so I'll post it here.

 

I have never been a massive Hartley fan and have had major doubts about his position pretty much since the 6-2 game from United and at various times thought his time might be up. My view on his time in charge is this...

In Hartley's 2.5 years or so in charge - how many times have you walked away from a game thinking "We were brilliant today?". Off the top of my head 7 times. (3-1 v Motherwell & Killie in 2014, 4-0 v Killie, 4-0 v Hamilton, 5-2 & 3-1 v Ross County this year and 4-2 v Partick in January). 

For me, Hartley has piggybacked on GGH, Stewart & Hemmings for 2 years. Our defence has been constantly awful in his time in charge and what have any of our midfielders outwith Harkins contributed in that time? Absolutely nothing. No goals, minimal assists. In so many games (even the ones listed above) the 3 players mentioned pulled us through on their own with inidividual brilliance. The fact 2 players finished in SPFL team of the year last year and we finished 8th says it all. In games where these 3 guys didn't get going we took humpings. 6-2, 4-1, 3-0 from United, 5-0 & 6-0 from Celtic, 5-2 from Ross County, 4-0 from ICT, 4-0 from Rangers not to mention the cup disasters against Dunfermline, Peterhead and East Fife. Never once have I left a game and thought "wow, Hartley changed that game today with his tactics" or "That substitution from Hartley was spot on and made a huge difference."

People hark back to the admins and the bad old days and told us we were lucky to have PH, that he was the best manager we have had in years. I'm sorry but what other manager in our recent history has been afforded the luxury of 43 signings in 32 months? Or rip up the contracts of X amount of their own poor signings? Or been able to whisk players away to a state of the art foreign training camp every summer? 

The mask has now slipped. Now that his only 2 or 3 good signings have moved on he has been exposed as the tactically clueless fraudster that many on here suspected he was for nearly 2 years now. 

Hartley should be given a lifetime contract for giving us 7 brilliant performances. I'm struggling to think of 7 games in my lifetime I've walked away thinking "We were brilliant today" never mind one manager's tenure.

[UnitedLoon63]

We'll never match United's tragic season on the minter scale for all the background shenanigans they also had going on [emoji20][/]
Well so far you've sold your best two players, not replaced them and have started worse than us last season as well have worse losing streak already compared to us all last season. So you are on track to top our farce last season.

[dd23]

The point I was trying to make was that of the 43 he has signed (Yup, 2 to 3 entire squads worth of players in 32 months - an average of 1.3 signings in every single month of his tenure)  2 or 3 have masked the fact that a vast majority of the rest of them have varied between average and shite. 

Bang on, I mentioned on this or another that with the 2 great ex Cowdenbeath successes he had huge prior knowledge given his own history. Hardly qualifies as having a nose for a player.

[SweeperDee]

f**k it. Changed my mind. I'd stick with Hartley. Something deep down in me that thinks he'll turn this around.

Board also telling everyone there won't be chopping and changing either.

[Dindeleux]

f**k it. Changed my mind. I'd stick with Hartley. Something deep down in me that thinks he'll turn this around.

Board also telling everyone there won't be chopping and changing either.

Would've been nice if you'd shown the same commitment and support to your dad.

[SweeperDee]

Would've been nice if you'd shown the same commitment and support to your dad.

Lawwwwwwwl

[Dindeleux]

Lawwwwwwwl

You dealt with that Rangers fan yet? You seemed to know him pretty well.

[SweeperDee]

You dealt with that Rangers fan yet? You seemed to know him pretty well.

Drop me a pm and we can discuss it. [emoji8]

[K.T]

All we need now is for our owners to try and desperately sell the club and fire various coaches.

[Twinkle]

All we need now is for our owners to try and desperately sell the club and fire various coaches.

Bookmarked

[DeeFeckinLicious]

Read a post on the other forum that I thought was pretty relevant and damning indictment of Hartley's time at Dundee, so I'll post it here.

 

I have never been a massive Hartley fan and have had major doubts about his position pretty much since the 6-2 game from United and at various times thought his time might be up. My view on his time in charge is this...

In Hartley's 2.5 years or so in charge - how many times have you walked away from a game thinking "We were brilliant today?". Off the top of my head 7 times. (3-1 v Motherwell & Killie in 2014, 4-0 v Killie, 4-0 v Hamilton, 5-2 & 3-1 v Ross County this year and 4-2 v Partick in January). 

For me, Hartley has piggybacked on GGH, Stewart & Hemmings for 2 years. Our defence has been constantly awful in his time in charge and what have any of our midfielders outwith Harkins contributed in that time? Absolutely nothing. No goals, minimal assists. In so many games (even the ones listed above) the 3 players mentioned pulled us through on their own with inidividual brilliance. The fact 2 players finished in SPFL team of the year last year and we finished 8th says it all. In games where these 3 guys didn't get going we took humpings. 6-2, 4-1, 3-0 from United, 5-0 & 6-0 from Celtic, 5-2 from Ross County, 4-0 from ICT, 4-0 from Rangers not to mention the cup disasters against Dunfermline, Peterhead and East Fife. Never once have I left a game and thought "wow, Hartley changed that game today with his tactics" or "That substitution from Hartley was spot on and made a huge difference."

People hark back to the admins and the bad old days and told us we were lucky to have PH, that he was the best manager we have had in years. I'm sorry but what other manager in our recent history has been afforded the luxury of 43 signings in 32 months? Or rip up the contracts of X amount of their own poor signings? Or been able to whisk players away to a state of the art foreign training camp every summer? 

The mask has now slipped. Now that his only 2 or 3 good signings have moved on he has been exposed as the tactically clueless fraudster that many on here suspected he was for nearly 2 years now. 

100% spot on. Well said.

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

Lose on Saturday, then I would hope he would do the decent thing and resign, for the bigger picture, the good of the team, and also to keep his rep a wee bit intact. etc etc, we'll wait and see.

[johnnydun]

1 hour ago, Bigmouth Strikes Again said:

Lose on Saturday, then I would hope he would do the decent thing and resign, for the bigger picture, the good of the team, and also to keep his rep a wee bit intact. etc etc, we'll wait and see.

Exactly this. As I don't think Nelms will get rid.

[ravabelli]

7 hours ago, AnAnInginAneAnA said:

Read a post on the other forum that I thought was pretty relevant and damning indictment of Hartley's time at Dundee, so I'll post it here.

 

I have never been a massive Hartley fan and have had major doubts about his position pretty much since the 6-2 game from United and at various times thought his time might be up. My view on his time in charge is this...

In Hartley's 2.5 years or so in charge - how many times have you walked away from a game thinking "We were brilliant today?". Off the top of my head 7 times. (3-1 v Motherwell & Killie in 2014, 4-0 v Killie, 4-0 v Hamilton, 5-2 & 3-1 v Ross County this year and 4-2 v Partick in January). 

For me, Hartley has piggybacked on GGH, Stewart & Hemmings for 2 years. Our defence has been constantly awful in his time in charge and what have any of our midfielders outwith Harkins contributed in that time? Absolutely nothing. No goals, minimal assists. In so many games (even the ones listed above) the 3 players mentioned pulled us through on their own with inidividual brilliance. The fact 2 players finished in SPFL team of the year last year and we finished 8th says it all. In games where these 3 guys didn't get going we took humpings. 6-2, 4-1, 3-0 from United, 5-0 & 6-0 from Celtic, 5-2 from Ross County, 4-0 from ICT, 4-0 from Rangers not to mention the cup disasters against Dunfermline, Peterhead and East Fife. Never once have I left a game and thought "wow, Hartley changed that game today with his tactics" or "That substitution from Hartley was spot on and made a huge difference."

People hark back to the admins and the bad old days and told us we were lucky to have PH, that he was the best manager we have had in years. I'm sorry but what other manager in our recent history has been afforded the luxury of 43 signings in 32 months? Or rip up the contracts of X amount of their own poor signings? Or been able to whisk players away to a state of the art foreign training camp every summer? 

The mask has now slipped. Now that his only 2 or 3 good signings have moved on he has been exposed as the tactically clueless fraudster that many on here suspected he was for nearly 2 years now. 

Pretty much my own thoughts too and very well put, can't think of seven games we've been brilliant though and the 4_0 at home to Hamilton I just remember their defending that day was comical and thinking even I'd score today

[Shadow Play]

2 hours ago, Bigmouth Strikes Again said:

Lose on Saturday, then I would hope he would do the decent thing and resign, for the bigger picture, the good of the team, and also to keep his rep a wee bit intact. etc etc, we'll wait and see.

Spot on.  I think it's fair to say he isn't going to get the sack before the Hamilton game so if we lose to Hamilton and he doesn't resign Nelms has to step up the the plate and sack him.  

As previously said, his body language last night was that of someone who knows he can't turn things around.  He must know that the players he has signed are individually not good enough or he isn't getting the best out of them.  Either way the fault lies firmly at his door.