Lowland Trapdoorwatch 2016-17

[HibeeJibee]

With all of the top teams in the SOSL licensed except for Mid Annandale, and the current bottom 3 in SPFL2 all south of the Tay, it looks likely that come the end of the season 1 or maybe 2 clubs will be relegated from LL for the first time.


Ahead of this weekend's big derby card, and with 1/3 of the season gone, things are exceedingly congested afoot LL currently. Newboys of Civil Service Strollers currently prop-up the division but only 6pts separate them in 16th from Hawick in 11th.

Down in the EOSL the season is barely underway, with the opening month and more being devoted to the "EOS Qualifying League", but Leith are the early leaders. Only 2 licensed clubs currently play in EOSL with Coldstream placed 8th and Burntisland 10th.

By contrast, in usual fashion the SOSL has already roared through to around halfway.


Any early predictions?



Lowland League (30 games)

 9    Whitehill      P10 W4 D1 L5   -6     13pts
10    Gretna         P11 W4 D1 L6  -14     13pts
11    Hawick         P10 W4 D0 L6   +1     12pts
12    Gala           P10 W2 D4 L4   -8     10pts
13    Edinburgh U    P10 W2 D3 L5   -5      9pts
14    Selkirk        P11 W3 D0 L8  -12      9pts
================================================
15    Preston        P10 W2 D1 L7  -19      7pts
16    Civil Serv.     P9 W1 D3 L5   -9      6pts

 

East of Scotland League (20 games over 22 dates)

1    Leith         P3 W3 D0 L0   +13     9pts
---------------------------------------------

2    Eyemouth      P3 W2 D1 L0    +7     7pts

3    Stir U EOS    P4 W2 D0 L2    +9     6pts

4    Heriot-W U    P2 W2 D0 L0    +7     6pts

5    Lothian Th    P1 W1 D0 L0    +4     3pts
=    Tynecastle    P1 W1 D0 L0    +4     3pts


South of Scotland League (26 games)

1    Wigtown       P12 W11 D1 L0   +29     34pts
------------------------------------------------

2    Mid Annan.    P13  W9 D1 L4   +15     27pts

3    Edusport A    P10  W8 D2 L0   +16     26pts

4    St Cuthb't     P9  W6 D2 L1   +20     20pts

5    Threave       P12  W4 D3 L5    +7     15pts
6    Lochar         P9  W5 D0 L4    +6     15pts
7    Lochmaben     P12  W5 D0 L7     0     15pts

[Ivo den Bieman]

Are there any propsects of Leith getting a licence?

Seems a shame that clubs aren't given a bit of leeway to gain a licence if they win promotion. If they cmmit to the process in a two year timeframe that should be enough IMO. Seems pretty clear that that LTHV side from last season and Leith themsevles wouldnt be out of place at a higher level.

[edinabear]

How many teams can be relegated from the LL? There doesn't seem to be much appetite for promotion in the EOfS, which makes you question the validity of it sitting at tier 6.

[HibeeJibee]

22 minutes ago, edinabear said:

How many teams can be relegated from the LL? There doesn't seem to be much appetite for promotion in the EOfS, which makes you question the validity of it sitting at tier 6.

Bottom is relegated and the winner of a playoff between EOS and SOS champions are promoted. If either isn't licensed the other goes up automatically.


However if (say) East Kilbride were promoted to SPFL2 and Montrose relegated - there'll be no relegation to keep steady at 16. Equally if (say) Cove promoted and Cowdenbeath relegated - 2 will go down to keep 16. So clubs will be aiming to keep out of the bottom 2 places, and if they can't avoid those places 15th is better than 16th.

Has its flaws but the alternative would be demanding that, in those respective scenarios, Montrose actually joined LL or Stirling Uni had to move to HL.


EOSL = question of incapability (i.e. no licenses) not appetite, tbh.


EDIT: By my reckoning there could, in theory, be another - single - vacancy process next spring but only if:

LL champion wins playoff + SPFL2 relegated club is north of the Tay + neither EOS or SOS champion is licensed

 

[selfassemblyshire]

Bottom is relegated and the winner of a playoff between EOS and SOS champions are promoted. If either isn't licensed the other goes up automatically.


However if (say) East Kilbride were promoted to SPFL2 and Montrose relegated - there'll be no relegation to keep steady at 16. Equally if (say) Cove promoted and Cowdenbeath relegated - 2 will go down to keep 16. So clubs will be aiming to keep out of the bottom 2 places, and if they can't avoid those places 15th is better than 16th.

Has its flaws but the alternative would be demanding that, in those respective scenarios, Montrose actually joined LL or Stirling Uni had to move to HL.


EOSL = question of incapability (i.e. no licenses) not appetite, tbh.


EDIT: By my reckoning there could, in theory, be another - single - vacancy process next spring but only if:

LL champion wins playoff + SPFL2 relegated club is north of the Tay + neither EOS or SOS champion is licensed

 

It would be absolutely ludacris if any team in the LL was forced to move to the HL. It would probably fold the majority of clubs in our league.

When Montrose played Brora in the first relegation play-off they were even worried about folding due to the travel etc and they're in Angus! I hate to say it but the current system is going to cause the death of a club before we restructure and play more regional in the lower tiers.

[Ivo den Bieman]

It was quietly mentioned by one or two "in the know" people that Montrose would have lasted 1-2 seasons outside the SPFL and would likely have folded beyond that, in the event of not being promtoed back to the league.

Many people at the time thought we were crying wolf and that the club would potnetially be "re-born" in non-league. This of course was romantic nonsense based on zero knowledge of finance.

The advantage of the Lowland League is that it is not domanted by a clutch of oil-funded village teams with league pretensions. Said oil rich clubs hooever up any players at that level with talent, with some paying quite unbelievable sums of money. Montrose would not have been able to compete on finance or could have attmepted to do so but taken a very big (possibly terminal) financial risk in the process.

I suspect however that the top end of the Lowand league is better than the top end of the Highland League. Hard to see past EK this season.

[edinabear]

10 minutes ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

It was quietly mentioned by one or two "in the know" people that Montrose would have lasted 1-2 seasons outside the SPFL and would likely have folded beyond that, in the event of not being promtoed back to the league.

Many people at the time thought we were crying wolf and that the club would potnetially be "re-born" in non-league. This of course was romantic nonsense based on zero knowledge of finance.

The advantage of the Lowland League is that it is not domanted by a clutch of oil-funded village teams with league pretensions. Said oil rich clubs hooever up any players at that level with talent, with some paying quite unbelievable sums of money. Montrose would not have been able to compete on finance or could have attmepted to do so but taken a very big (possibly terminal) financial risk in the process.

I suspect however that the top end of the Lowand league is better than the top end of the Highland League. Hard to see past EK this season.

Who are the 'oil rich' clubs you speak of? Are there teams in the HL that have a bigger budget than League 2 sides?

[FairWeatherFan]

If Montrose Roselea could exist in the Junior ranks. I would of thought that Montrose could exist with their SFA membership and playing in the Highland League.

[Ivo den Bieman]

3 hours ago, edinabear said:

Who are the 'oil rich' clubs you speak of? Are there teams in the HL that have a bigger budget than League 2 sides?

Brora, Formartine, Turriff to name but three. All paying wages on a par with League One standard, never mind League Two.

[Ivo den Bieman]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

If Montrose Roselea could exist in the Junior ranks. I would of thought that Montrose could exist with their SFA membership and playing in the Highland League.

Roselea struggled to exist at East Region Premier level hence their move to the North region.

People that actually know Montrose's finances painted a very bleak picture indeed of the future out of the league structure.

[Bundesliga Boy]

Back on topic...........I'll be attending the Civil SS v Preston Athletic game this weekend.  Have a feeling that Preston may be the unlucky team that falls this season but time will tell.

 

Personally I think the most worrying aspect of the Trapdoor is whether there will be an EOS to fall into.  Now that a precedence appears to have been set that you can retain your Club License and continue to play in the juniors (ie a league that's not signed up to the pyramid), it would seem to be a no-brainer for a team like Burntisland to turn junior knowing that their Scottish Cup place would not be in jeopardy.  Add in teams like Ormiston who have been rumoured to be considering following teams like Easthouses and Craigroyston to the East Juniors and all of a sudden the league could be in a precarious position.  Stirling Uni may also decide as Spartans did last year to disband their B Team.  It's even possible Tweedmouth could return to England as early signs suggest they are a good bit out their depth in what is now a pretty poor league to begin with.

The league just has to hope that if they do lose any teams that its 1 or 2 maximum.  These losses are likely to be at least partially offset as the EOS will almost certainly gain a new club via the LL trapdoor due to the EOS champ not being licensed and a club like Wigtown & Bladnoch looking so impressive this season in the SOS.

 

[stanley]

Promotion and relegation between the LL and tier six would be very interesting if Leith, Lothian Thistle and Tynecastle had a licence.  You'd have teams in both the East and South challenging for promotion.  Seems fairly certain that the top teams in the East could compete well in the Lowland League.  Clearly, there's a huge drop in quality lower down in the EoS.  

Do the teams in the South have to accept promotion if they have a licence?  I know that Edusport definitely have Lowland League ambitions but I'm not sure about the others.

Are any of the unlicensed teams in the East/South interested at all or anywhere near getting a licence?  I remember there being articles posted here about, I think, Lothian and Leith aiming for a licence?  Heriot-Watt could maybe have a chance now that Riccarton has been re-developed?

[HibeeJibee]

Promotion is mandatory across the pyramid according to local press, SOS rulebook, etc. I think LTHV, Leith and Tynecastle would bite your hand off for a licence and promotion - cup results have shown they could compete, it would give annual Scottish Cup entry (instead of having to fight with each other for 1 place) and could help stem the annual loss of players.

Gretna are the only club from the south or west currently in the bottom half, so chances are whoever (if anyone) goes down would be heading to the EOS. It could be ironic, though in many ways appropriate given most of them came from EOS, if the relegation of 1 or 2 clubs from LL actually staved-off a crisis of numbers in EOS, which - as BB alludes - has toiled.

Of the unlicensed clubs in EOS the club by far the furthest progressed was Duns but of course things all went badly wrong there in July. Others might have ambitions but much to do.

[calmac25]

Promotion is mandatory across the pyramid according to local press, SOS rulebook, etc. I think LTHV, Leith and Tynecastle would bite your hand off for a licence and promotion - cup results have shown they could compete, it would give annual Scottish Cup entry (instead of having to fight with each other for 1 place) and could help stem the annual loss of players.

Gretna are the only club from the south or west currently in the bottom half, so chances are whoever (if anyone) goes down would be heading to the EOS. It could be ironic, though in many ways appropriate given most of them came from EOS, if the relegation of 1 or 2 clubs from LL actually staved-off a crisis of numbers in EOS, which - as BB alludes - has toiled.

Of the unlicensed clubs in EOS the club by far the furthest progressed was Duns but of course things all went badly wrong there in July. Others might have ambitions but much to do.

I just had a look on the council planning portal and LTHV have at long last submitted plans to put in 2 covered enclosures combined capacity of 100 plus 2 containers (tastefully coloured yellow) including, mens, woman's and disabled toilets and a servery/hospitality room.

Decision deadline is 6 weeks away so possible that 1or both teams at saughton could be licenced this season.

[HibeeJibee]

That would be excellent news. Both LTHV and Tynecastle are strong teams at the head of large youth systems. It's always been the facilities aspects which have held them back and when Tynecastle moved into Saughton last season you did think "they could work together and get over these hurdles". If the council would put 3G down, or stop flogging the park for every game it can take during BST, that would also be a help as it suffers a lot of postponements.

People say Leith will share Meadowbank post-redevelopment, but no idea if correct.

[calmac25]

That would be excellent news. Both LTHV and Tynecastle are strong teams at the head of large youth systems. It's always been the facilities aspects which have held them back and when Tynecastle moved into Saughton last season you did think "they could work together and get over these hurdles". If the council would put 3G down, or stop flogging the park for every game it can take during BST, that would also be a help as it suffers a lot of postponements.

People say Leith will share Meadowbank post-redevelopment, but no idea if correct.

Regarding meadowbank I think a lot will depend on which surface the main stadium has. 3g and you'd expect them to share. however I'd think that Leith and city should be advocating making the second pitch up to licencing standards as it won't have a running track and could feel more like a football stadium.

A Spartans style stand on the far side of an 8 lane running track and long jump pit would be a terrible view

[HibeeJibee]

Latest plans had both pitches - the stadium pitch, and the community pitch - as 3G. Although of course that would mean you couldn't use it for throwing events?

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/article/2024/on_your_marks_for_a_new_meadowbank


If I was City I'd also be lobbying for a larger stand or plentiful terracing.

Their average crowd in SPFL2 so far has been 464. Also drew 525 and 459 in League Cup.

Their playoff crowds were 908 (Brora), 839 (Cove) and 1,090 (East Stirlingshire).

Also drawn likes of 1,027 (Montrose), 1,038 (QotS), 573 (Auchinleck) and 601 (Brora) in Scottish Cup.

[cowdenbeath]

5 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

Latest plans had both pitches - the stadium pitch, and the community pitch - as 3G. Although of course that would mean you couldn't use it for throwing events?

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/news/article/2024/on_your_marks_for_a_new_meadowbank

It says that the pitch inside the running track would be either grass or 3g, would imagine the athletes would want grass for the throwing events?

[calmac25]

I can't see the argument for having 3g inside an athletics track and then have a separate throwing area out with the arena.

I read before that Spartans 500 seater only cost £110,000 . Why not have one at the athletics track and then another one at the 2nd pitch?

Interesting that with the crowds edinburgh city have published this year then they might be needing all ticket games in their new stadium!

[cowdenbeath]

4 minutes ago, calmac25 said:

I can't see the argument for having 3g inside an athletics track and then have a separate throwing area out with the arena.

I read before that Spartans 500 seater only cost £110,000 . Why not have one at the athletics track and then another one at the 2nd pitch?

Interesting that with the crowds edinburgh city have published this year then they might be needing all ticket games in their new stadium!

Depends how much fuss the athletics folk would make about it I suppose! Given the capacity it seems like its going to be more for athletes training rather than for events.

Re City's crowds is it just going to be the stand or will there be terracing to go with it?