Kelty Hearts Thread?

[pie n beans]

These are pics from the the league decider between LTHV & Leith 3 weeks ago,it was almost the same on sat with Kelty and Bonnyrigg, there was still 100s at kelty, these pic doesn't show 1 fan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry my mistake 2 guys in the back ground

[kefc]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

 

You are clearly a forward thinking club. You could have been a catalyst for change and along with others helped to change attitudes and taken the Junior game as a whole into the Pyramid.

Where was the Kelty voice when the Pyramid was being bad mouthed by the SJFA a few years back? You could have helped change that.

 

Change will come in a few years time but probably not as quick as our club would want it, not every club is the same and we all face different obstacles in getting to where we want to be, sometimes this takes time. We are in the fortunate position as we have done the last 3 years in that we can move quickly if needed to.

We asked the SJFA if we could get clubs round the table a few months back for a chat to see what could be done in a forward thinking way for better of every SJFA club in terms of the pyramid and SFA Licencing but this was turned down I'm afraid.

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, kefc said:

Change will come in a few years time but probably not as quick as our club would want it, not every club is the same and we all face different obstacles in getting to where we want to be, sometimes this takes time. We are in the fortunate position as we have done the last 3 years in that we can move quickly if needed to.

We asked the SJFA if we could get clubs round the table a few months back for a chat to see what could be done in a forward thinking way for better of every SJFA club in terms of the pyramid and SFA Licencing but this was turned down I'm afraid.

You should know by now that change doesn't happen overnight and as I said, Kelty were not pushing for it when the Pyramid was the main topic of discussion a few seasons back, when Tom Johnston and Co were rubbishing it.

As for meetings, why are you asking the SJFA? that would be the last thing you should have been doing.  Talk to your fellow clubs, organise meetings, find common ground, speak direct to the SFA, that is where the seeds of real change occurs, it doesn't occur by asking the SJFA for permission who are notoriously anti-Pyramid! You don't need their permission to talk to others.

If that doesn't work (and it might not) then yeah push ahead with whatever is in your best interests. there just seems a bit of undue haste to abandon the Juniors for no good reason.

[Burnie_man]

27 minutes ago, pie n beans said:

These are pics from the the league decider between LTHV & Leith 3 weeks ago,it was almost the same on sat with Kelty and Bonnyrigg, there was still 100s at kelty, these pic doesn't show 1 fan

 

 

From talking to someone who was at the game, the league decider had between 120-150 present. The same person was at a LTHV game earlier in the season, albeit midweek, there were around 30 at it.

I was at Burntisland in their last league game of the season against Eyemouth, on a Saturday, there were 27 non-playing/coaching people inside the ground. Some of those will have been committee.

It's a very poorly supported league.

[lithgierose]

37 minutes ago, pie n beans said:

These are pics from the the league decider between LTHV & Leith 3 weeks ago,it was almost the same on sat with Kelty and Bonnyrigg, there was still 100s at kelty, these pic doesn't show 1 fan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry my mistake 2 guys in the back ground

missing the dug ?

[kefc]

24 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

You should know by now that change doesn't happen overnight and as I said, Kelty were not pushing for it when the Pyramid was the main topic of discussion a few seasons back, when Tom Johnston and Co were rubbishing it.

As for meetings, why are you asking the SJFA? that would be the last thing you should have been doing.  Talk to your fellow clubs, organise meetings, find common ground, speak direct to the SFA, that is where the seeds of real change occurs, it doesn't occur by asking the SJFA for permission who are notoriously anti-Pyramid! You don't need their permission to talk to others.

If that doesn't work (and it might not) then yeah push ahead with whatever is in your best interests. there just seems a bit of undue haste to abandon the Juniors for no good reason.

Of course change doesn't happen over night, that's why I said in my post "change takes time" From a personal view of Kelty Hearts we don't want to wait years for change with the greatest respect.

Why not ask the SJFA, better to be transparent no? We asked if change could be spoken about in terms of the pyramid and licence and a meeting with all clubs would be beneficial but the SJFA felt otherwise, this was quite possibly the tipping point for us. Surely an association leads from the front and initiates or puts out ideas for change not the other way round.

We have been speaking to the SFA in terms of our Licence for the last 5 months, there was a meeting with the SJFA, Highland, Lowland League and the SFA a few months back but as far as I'm aware nothing really came out of it for Junior Clubs although I may be wrong.

Your words "the SJFA are anti-pyramid" if they are then clubs need to ask some serious questions because it is holding them back in terms of SFA Licencing imo.

[cowdenbeath]

5 hours ago, kefc said:

Totally get that and it's a very good post, the question is where non league football or junior football will be in 5/10 years time?

We are sure it will look nothing like it does today, Junior clubs and the association will be part of the pyramid without a doubt. It's a case of waiting on this happening or having the bravery and foresight to be a step ahead, time will tell if the correct decision was made.

We feel the Lowland League with the way its setup and the caviates on offer to the competing clubs will become the premier non league division which in time may open up as an East/West Lowland League, again the it's a case of getting to the party early or waiting. Winners of the Lowland League get into all the senior cup competitions, a magnicent reward in terms of exposure online, the press and possibly TV. To get to the Lowland League if accepted we must try and do our very best in the East Of Scotland League 1st which we know won't be easy.

If Kelty Hearts are successful enough to reach the SPFL your view is that we will just become another team, every SPFL division this season was exciting at the top and bottom to the very end, look at Brechin with a population of 6000 people ? The exposure, the glamour of possible big derby or matches against top SPFL clubs in cups, the test of working your way up the pyramid and possibly if successful having promotions or play offs in the SPFL is the ultimate goal and one we all think will excite and help to grow the club. For instance the buzz and exposure the smaller clubs would have got from Friday nights Betfred Cup Group draw would be tremendous to be involved in.

Does it come down to money ? No but it would make the club more sustainable long term be it in the Lowland League or the SPFL. Hats off to them for being forward thinking but Linlithgow get North of £20,000 minimum every year over every club in the East Region, their SFA Membership fee, Scottish Cup prize money and Matchday income from the Scottish, wonder what the guys on your committee would do if that was taken away? I'd bet they would most probably look to do what we are doing.

Yes we could cement ourselves as a Junior power and try to rack up accolades but we would still be relying on outside investment to achieve this each season although a good Will Hill Scottish Cup run would help. Linlithgow have a start on us all of £20,000 at least, Bonnyrigg, Boness, ourselves and almost all Junior clubs main income stream to our budgets I'd bet come from out with the club in terms of sponsorship. (we are also fortunate in having every penny made in our social club goes to the football side too which boosts our budget) By being licensed and competing in the Will Hill Scott Cup each season, if successful and we reach the top end of the Lowland League or reach the SPFL then our clubs main income is prize money due to clubs being rewarded for their success, couple that with the social club income and our loyal sponsors this creates a very strong sustainable model.

Kelty Hearts made the move from Amatuer to Junior in 1980, brave move back then with the club being formed in 1975, when you look at it we are a young club who have achieved so much in only 37 years in the SJFA, we feel we are ready to make the next move.

 

I always though when you started building the new enclosures and talk of the seated stand you were doing it to move on not to stand still. Its a gamble but as you say in the next decade the face of non league football will change and your getting in early.

No doubt back in 1980 some folk would have questioned leaving the amateurs for the juniors no doubt!

Good luck with your new venture.

[GordonS]

2 hours ago, virginton said:

They should get access after they integrate their leagues within the rest of the pyramid structure and should be removed from the competition entirely until they do so. Why should Junior clubs get a pick and mix option as to which competitions they want to take part in but not any other category of non-league club?

Why shouldn't they get to pick and choose? What exactly is the merit in a one-size-fits-all approach that takes no consideration of what's best for all? How exactly does the pyramid improve Scottish football or the Scottish Cup? The Scottish Cup is nothing to do with the Scottish leagues and there's no reason at all why it should have to be. The pyramid was only made 4 years ago, the cup's a helluva lot older than that, and we've got the League Cup for league teams anyway.

The French clubs aren't all in their pyramid, incidentally. Some of them aren't even in Europe!

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Most of your complaints about the SPFL are rather beside the point, given that there can be no expectation that Junior clubs would simply waltz into the national leagues. Well-resourced teams in the Highland and Lowland leagues such as Brora and East Kilbride have romped their regional leagues in recent season and fallen at the final hurdle - there's no reason to expect anything different from Junior sides. Which means that your experience would be mostly of another form of non-league football in the Lowland League, not too dissimilar from your current setup. 

I don't expect Junior sides to "waltz" in and nothing I said suggested anything like it, so you're just setting up an Aunt Sally. I said the best we could realistically aspire to be would be an Annan or a Peterhead.

To me, the LL is less attractive than the current Junior set-up. I'm not particularly interested in recently created teams with no fans and dull grounds, or outgrown children's teams. Edusport Academy??? FFS. The Juniors clubs have mostly represented their towns, villages and communities for over a century and you really feel it when you visit them. But if the LL were to split into East and West and merge with the Juniors, I'd settle for that.

That said, in case you're not aware, Linlithgow Rose are much bigger than any LL club and have beaten every one they've played in the Scottish Cup, most very easily. East Kilbride are minnows compared to any of the big Junior clubs. Rose have also beaten Wick, Inverness Clach, Nairn and Fraserburgh comfortably enough and only lost a replay to Deveronvale having been 2-0 up with 5 minutes to go. I have no doubt that any of the top Junior sides would win the HL most years.

[Burnie_man]

48 minutes ago, kefc said:

Your words "the SJFA are anti-pyramid" if they are then clubs need to ask some serious questions because it is holding them back in terms of SFA Licencing imo.

But you guys didn’t, that is my point. You went and asked the question of the SJFA, they weren’t interested which anyone could have told you would happen so you decided to jump ship asap.   As I said there are umpteen different ways of driving change from within if you wanted to do that, there are plenty clubs and people within the Junior game who would be receptive to moving this forward. You already know the names of a few.

I just can’t help thinking that Kelty’s sudden interest in the Pyramid, which wasn’t there before, is driven by other motives and not some ideology that the Pyramid is actually a good thing and the right place to be.  You wouldn’t be going to the EoSFL  if there wasn’t a pot of gold at the end of the licence rainbow.

[vikingTON]

42 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Why shouldn't they get to pick and choose? What exactly is the merit in a one-size-fits-all approach that takes no consideration of what's best for all? How exactly does the pyramid improve Scottish football or the Scottish Cup? The Scottish Cup is nothing to do with the Scottish leagues and there's no reason at all why it should have to be. The pyramid was only made 4 years ago, the cup's a helluva lot older than that, and we've got the League Cup for league teams anyway.

The Scottish Cup is organised by the SFA and it is the SFA that is pushing for a pyramid structure all the way through Scottish football. So if the Junior clubs don't want to take part in the pyramid setup - as is their right - then they shouldn't be allowed to participate in an SFA tournament. Which is the SFA's right as well.  

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I don't expect Junior sides to "waltz" in and nothing I said suggested anything like it, so you're just setting up an Aunt Sally. I said the best we could realistically aspire to be would be an Annan or a Peterhead.

For you to be complaining about how terrible the national setup would be when you've done nothing to suggest that you'd get near it in the first place is presumptuous to say the least. It'd be like a Morton fan complaining about the cost of our ticket package for the Champions League group stages.

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To me, the LL is less attractive than the current Junior set-up. I'm not particularly interested in recently created teams with no fans and dull grounds, or outgrown children's teams. Edusport Academy??? FFS. The Juniors clubs have mostly represented their towns, villages and communities for over a century and you really feel it when you visit them. But if the LL were to split into East and West and merge with the Juniors, I'd settle for that.

If these clubs weren't fit to be in the Lowland League then an influx of Juniors into the pyramid system would surely push them out of it and into the lower ranks of the pyramid rather quickly. Behemoths of the game like Linlithgow (see below) wouldn't need to worry too much about that then.

I think I'd rather let sporting merit determine who represents what rather than your Hovis theme tuned, back of a fag packet criteria. 

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That said, in case you're not aware, Linlithgow Rose are much bigger than any LL club and have beaten every one they've played in the Scottish Cup, most very easily. East Kilbride are minnows compared to any of the big Junior clubs.

And yet IIRC you finished in the bottom half of your own league this season; I doubt the new EK management team are shitting themselves about a contest in the near future then. 

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Rose have also beaten Wick, Inverness Clach, Nairn and Fraserburgh comfortably enough and only lost a replay to Deveronvale having been 2-0 up with 5 minutes to go. I have no doubt that any of the top Junior sides would win the HL most years.

Three of those four sides are typically nowhere the top of the HL, which makes your judgement about its standard just as presumptuous as your complaints about playing national league football. 

[wullie robb]

19 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

But you guys didn’t, that is my point. You went and asked the question of the SJFA, they weren’t interested which anyone could have told you would happen so you decided to jump ship asap.   As I said there are umpteen different ways of driving change from within if you wanted to do that, there are plenty clubs and people within the Junior game who would be receptive to moving this forward. You already know the names of a few.

I just can’t help thinking that Kelty’s sudden interest in the Pyramid, which wasn’t there before, is driven by other motives and not some ideology that the Pyramid is actually a good thing and the right place to be.  You wouldn’t be going to the EoSFL  if there wasn’t a pot of gold at the end of the licence rainbow.

Why wouldn't Kelty choose this root.? 

Pot of Gold.? 

The club seem financially sound, and are in the Scottish draw through winning the league.

[Burnie_man]

28 minutes ago, wullie robb said:

Why wouldn't Kelty choose this root.? 

Pot of Gold.? 

The club seem financially sound, and are in the Scottish draw through winning the league.

I'm not saying they shouldn't, and good luck to them, but they didn't really attempt to change attitudes whilst members of the SJFA. It all seems very hasty, but that's their business.

[kefc]

8 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I'm not saying they shouldn't, and good luck to them, but they didn't really attempt to change attitudes whilst members of the SJFA. It all seems very hasty, but that's their business.

Push through change that could have went on for years, no thanks.

We tried to organise chats between SJFA and all clubs but it was turned down, we then decided to act in our own interests of our club rightly or wrongly.

Being a member of the governing body in Scotland the SFA is the ultimate recognition for any football club in Scotland, it's a shame SJFA clubs at present can't be members.

[newcastle broon]

2 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

 

From talking to someone who was at the game, the league decider had between 120-150 present. The same person was at a LTHV game earlier in the season, albeit midweek, there were around 30 at it.

I was at Burntisland in their last league game of the season against Eyemouth, on a Saturday, there were 27 non-playing/coaching people inside the ground. Some of those will have been committee.

It's a very poorly supported league.

As are many non  leagues in Scotland but why should that stop the club progressing.

Well done Kelty for showing a bit of ambition. 

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, kefc said:

Push through change that could have went on for years, no thanks.

We tried to organise chats between SJFA and all clubs but it was turned down, we then decided to act in our own interests of our club rightly or wrongly.

Being a member of the governing body in Scotland the SFA is the ultimate recognition for any football club in Scotland, it's a shame SJFA clubs at present can't be members.

Do you accept that you could have spoken to fellow member clubs who you know are receptive to Licencing/Pyramid and taken it from there? There was never any chance of there being a quick answer, you know that.  The only quick answer was to resign and join the EoSFL, which you have done.

[newcastle broon]

7 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Do you accept that you could have spoken to fellow member clubs who you know are receptive to Licencing/Pyramid and taken it from there? There was never any chance of there being a quick answer, you know that.  The only quick answer was to resign and join the EoSFL, which you have done.

Still 2-1 to your seniors  leaving for juniors debate though. 

Craigroyston/easthouses 2-1 Kelty 

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, newcastle broon said:

Still 2-1 to your seniors  leaving for juniors debate though. 

Craigroyston/easthouses 2-1 Kelty 

A perfect illustration of what a mess it all is!

[leomessi1984]

Josh Mcphie posted as leaving tonight. Guessing Thomson is the only other still to be confirmed as staying.

[sniffer]

Where's he leaving too

[stanley]

Very harsh to criticise Kelty for this.  It's not up to Kelty to create a better pyramid system or change the views of the juniors.  They have to do what they want to do and if getting a licence and trying to progress up the leagues is their aim then moving to the EoS is the best way of achieving that.  They can't wait around forever trying to convince the juniors clubs to change their minds about the pyramid.  Seems like some people turned out to be very wrong with their predictions about how things would go with clubs moving between the leagues (although I don't think anyone was really expecting a big junior club to move to the EoS any time soon).