Kelty Hearts Thread?

[Burnie_man]

13 hours ago, kefc said:

We did speak to 3 other clubs asking for a meeting, 1 declined as they had their licence so it maybe didn't appeal to them.

The other 2 clubs were open, we had a chat which was positive, we then contacted the SJFA for a meet with all clubs with our plans but it was declined.

We then decided as a club we didn't want to be held back any longer from working towards SFA Membership so we signed the declaration on the SFA criteria accepting to join the pyramid system.

I applaud your passion but your going on a rant to the wrong club or people, we did more than most for change, believe me we tried. It wasn't met with the same commitment we had on making things better so we did what was best for our club.

You didn't really expect change to happen overnight regardless of the feedback and after speaking to two clubs?

[Burnie_man]

9 hours ago, GordonS said:

It's the SFA's right, but I really don't see the connection with the pyramid. There's lots of things the SFA wants clubs to do, they aren't all preconditions to Scottish Cup entry. The cup would benefit from hugely widening the early rounds anyway.

 

Spot on, if club licencing is principally about improving facilities and the governance of clubs, why is it linked to the Pyramid? As the governing body of all Scottish football, the SFA should be out there promoting licencing and encouraging clubs to go down that route regardless of what league they play in.

They don't.

[kefc]

18 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

You didn't really expect change to happen overnight regardless of the feedback and after speaking to two clubs?

Of course not but what we would have liked was the SJFA to engage in listening to us and other clubs for the greater good, this was refused. 

At that point we lost confidence and decided to make the biggest decision the club has ever made by signing the declaration to join the pyramid upon our SFA Licence application.

[Klinker]

I think Burnie_man really needs to give it a rest now and relax a bit. No club (be that Kelty or anyone else) owes the Juniors anything and if leaving the grade to join the pyramid is an assessment they've made then they've nothing to apologise for. They certainly don't need to explain their actions to you and kefc has shown far more patience than he's needed to in addressing your points.

Since you seem so invested in this why not draft a proposal yourself and contact the SFA and SJFA? I'm sure they'd be delighted to hear any thoughts you have. Or you can continue to berate a club online whose only offence is to show some ambition. 

[stanley]

Why should Kelty be the ones that make all of the changes happen and/or wait until everything changes rather than moving now?  I don't understand the criticism.  By moving, they've already done something hugely significant in non-league Scottish football and that alone is something which could start discussions.  If you saw one or two more big junior clubs move then it might force the organisations into action. 

[Burnie_man]

18 minutes ago, Klinker said:

I think Burnie_man really needs to give it a rest now and relax a bit. No club (be that Kelty or anyone else) owes the Juniors anything and if leaving the grade to join the pyramid is an assessment they've made then they've nothing to apologise for. They certainly don't need to explain their actions to you and kefc has shown far more patience than he's needed to in addressing your points.

Since you seem so invested in this why not draft a proposal yourself and contact the SFA and SJFA? I'm sure they'd be delighted to hear any thoughts you have. Or you can continue to berate a club online whose only offence is to show some ambition. 

First post aye?

This is a public forum, and anyone is entitled to ask question or raise points, and you choose to reply or not, you chose to agree or not. This forum has helped drive change in the past by people not being afraid to ask the difficult questions eg the current East Region structure which was born on here and debated for a year before being present to the East Region AGM and passed by clubs. You may not realise that being new to here.

My point is if Kelty were really, genuinely interested in seeing change from within they would have spoken up years ago when this was being discussed. They didn’t. If they are only now seeing the light they could, as Superleague Champions, be a catalyst for change but they don’t appear to want to give it a chance and seem to be in a rush to leave for reasons not entirely clear, probably money related. Maybe the sponsor wants it, who knows.

I’m just disappointed that as a club with ambitions, they choose to leave rather than help other like-minded clubs push for change.  It is of course their choice and as I said before, good luck to them.

That’s my opinion and you either agree or don’t agree. It’s a place to debate opinion. I haven’t asked anyone for an apology as there’s nothing to apologise for!

[Burnie_man]

17 minutes ago, stanley said:

Why should Kelty be the ones that make all of the changes happen and/or wait until everything changes rather than moving now?  I don't understand the criticism.  By moving, they've already done something hugely significant in non-league Scottish football and that alone is something which could start discussions.  If you saw one or two more big junior clubs move then it might force the organisations into action. 

Perhaps Kelty leaving will be a catalyst for change in itself, I hope so, but I’m not very hopeful.

[Fifes Elite Force]

Pretty tough decision overall but I think the club has made the right decision on balance as it stands just now.  There does seem to be a defensive outlook from certain areas of junior football about all this but it is what it is.

 

Hopefully it works out for the club and I think there will be quite a few others looking to see how it pans out with the view of also joining. It sounds like the SJFA aren't very proactive and communication seems pretty poor. I don't think its one clubs responsibility to make change but can certainly be part of a collective effort if something was driven by the governing body or if clubs had a joined up approach but that doesn't seem to exist. If neither of those things are there I don't think the club has any obligation to stay loyal to the league they are in if they feel they would benefit by moving on. At the end of the day its a sport and the ambition should be to play at the highest level possible (within the constraints of budgets etc obviously).

 

 

[pie n beans]

The reason why people are going on is they don't want Kelty who are our best team in the East to leave as i don't but they have a small chance to get into senior football, if the SFA are not interested in helping then good luck to them but it might see the other bigger clubs leaving also which would be devastating to the East Region.

[Klinker]

22 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

First post aye?

This is a public forum, and anyone is entitled to ask question or raise points, and you choose to reply or not, you chose to agree or not. This forum has helped drive change in the past by people not being afraid to ask the difficult questions eg the current East Region structure which was born on here and debated for a year before being present to the East Region AGM and passed by clubs. You may not realise that being new to here.

My point is if Kelty were really, genuinely interested in seeing change from within they would have spoken up years ago when this was being discussed. They didn’t. If they are only now seeing the light they could, as Superleague Champions, be a catalyst for change but they don’t appear to want to give it a chance and seem to be in a rush to leave for reasons not entirely clear, probably money related. Maybe the sponsor wants it, who knows.

I’m just disappointed that as a club with ambitions, they choose to leave rather than help other like-minded clubs push for change.  It is of course their choice and as I said before, good luck to them.

That’s my opinion and you either agree or don’t agree. It’s a place to debate opinion. I haven’t asked anyone for an apology as there’s nothing to apologise for!

It was my first post - I'm not a troll in a different guise, I promise you.

I'm as frustrated as you are about the East Region structure and intransigence of the SJFA. But you should look back at your posts and see how they read. It seems as if Kelty made an attempt to drive change whilst inside the tent - all other parties not interested. Why should they spend 2, 3, maybe even 5 seasons trying to convince the big fish who enjoy their small pond?

I suspect in a few years time we'll look back and say that Kelty did end up driving forward change but that it came when they left the tent and others thereafter followed. I don't think we'll have seen the last game between Kelty and the Haws, Bo'ness, Bonnyrigg etc.

[Burnie_man]

It was my first post - I'm not a troll in a different guise, I promise you.

I'm as frustrated as you are about the East Region structure and intransigence of the SJFA. But you should look back at your posts and see how they read. It seems as if Kelty made an attempt to drive change whilst inside the tent - all other parties not interested. Why should they spend 2, 3, maybe even 5 seasons trying to convince the big fish who enjoy their small pond?

I suspect in a few years time we'll look back and say that Kelty did end up driving forward change but that it came when they left the tent and others thereafter followed. I don't think we'll have seen the last game between Kelty and the Haws, Bo'ness, Bonnyrigg etc.

 

I certainly wouldn't expect Kelty to hang around forever waiting for change, but there's a difference between 5 years and a few months. As everyone knows, change does not happen overnight in the Juniors, nothing happens quickly, if at all. You need persistence.

 

Whether this prompts others to follow suit remains to be seen. I hope what it does do is prompt the big clubs in the game to start asking serious questions of Tom Johnston and the SJFA hierarchy.

 

[drs]

58 minutes ago, pie n beans said:

The reason why people are going on is they don't want Kelty who are our best team in the East to leave as i don't but they have a small chance to get into senior football, if the SFA are not interested in helping then good luck to them but it might see the other bigger clubs leaving also which would be devastating to the East Region.

Bo'ness have as good as said they are going, its just a matter of when there, and Linlithgow and Bonnyrigg are well on the way down the road as well.

Lose them and you've lost the 3 biggest teams in the East League and a club that has been doing well over the last 3 years. What do you then have left if your names have gone?

Its going to take the big names leaving to change things. The pyramid is here and its not going anywhere. I don't think Kelty are a big enough name to be a full catalyst for change, yes they may be league champions but they've had 3 years at the top of the Superleague and aren't considered one of the more "traditional" big names. Its actually a shame that it wasn't one of the more traditional big guns who has jumped first as that would start a far more wide ranging look at the Junior game in the east.

Junior clubs should be looking to get on board with the future of Scottish football, the days of there being a separate Senior and Junior game are closing fast and the East clubs if they want to survive must start working out a way to get involved in the pyramid and embrace change or they can continue to be insular and decry the pyramid whilst harking back to massive crowds in the 1950s and ultimately end up in the local amateur leagues.

[Fifes Elite Force]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

 

I certainly wouldn't expect Kelty to hang around forever waiting for change, but there's a difference between 5 years and a few months. As everyone knows, change does not happen overnight in the Juniors, nothing happens quickly, if at all. You need persistence.

 

I think you have answered your own questions with this post on why Kelty felt the better option was leaving after trying to talk with some clubs and the SJFA. I don't seen any reason why Kelty should be persistent and wait for others to maybe decide if change is needed if they see another avenue readily available to go down.

[Burnie_man]

I think you have answered your own questions with this post on why Kelty felt the better option was leaving after trying to talk with some clubs and the SJFA. I don't seen any reason why Kelty should be persistent and wait for others to maybe decide if change is needed if they see another avenue readily available to go down.

So let's suppose they got positive feedback from the SJFA, or the other clubs, a sort of "yeah lets start talking about this", did they think things would change quickly?

You accept that to be part of change it's going to take some time. I don't think Kelty were prepared to give it time regardless of the feedback.

I'll say again, that's their choice and good luck to them. I'm just disappointed that they choose to give up on Junior football so quickly.

[Burnie_man]

Bo'ness have as good as said they are going, its just a matter of when there, and Linlithgow and Bonnyrigg are well on the way down the road as well.
Lose them and you've lost the 3 biggest teams in the East League and a club that has been doing well over the last 3 years. What do you then have left if your names have gone?
Its going to take the big names leaving to change things. The pyramid is here and its not going anywhere. I don't think Kelty are a big enough name to be a full catalyst for change, yes they may be league champions but they've had 3 years at the top of the Superleague and aren't considered one of the more "traditional" big names. Its actually a shame that it wasn't one of the more traditional big guns who has jumped first as that would start a far more wide ranging look at the Junior game in the east.
Junior clubs should be looking to get on board with the future of Scottish football, the days of there being a separate Senior and Junior game are closing fast and the East clubs if they want to survive must start working out a way to get involved in the pyramid and embrace change or they can continue to be insular and decry the pyramid whilst harking back to massive crowds in the 1950s and ultimately end up in the local amateur leagues.

I'd like to see change happen as a "group" as far as possible, rather than a slow trickle of clubs.

The West clubs don't really have anywhere to go if they wanted to follow Keltys lead.

[Fifes Elite Force]

28 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

 

 

So let's suppose they got positive feedback from the SJFA, or the other clubs, a sort of "yeah lets start talking about this", did they think things would change quickly?

You accept that to be part of change it's going to take some time. I don't think Kelty were prepared to give it time regardless of the feedback.

I'll say again, that's their choice and good luck to them. I'm just disappointed that they choose to give up on Junior football so quickly.

 

Firstly people on here have said they tried to open talks and nothing happened. I get your argument if the SJFA said after being apporached they wanted change and put together a plan/timeline/a meeting for it to be discussed but that doesn't seem to be forth coming after Keltys efforts. You mentioned persistence in your post, why is it Keltys responsibility to be persistent if they have another avenue they could take? They are 1 club not a governing body.

 

Secondly even if the SJFA did all those things I mention but it will take time (which you seem to suggest it would) then I don't see any reason again for Kelty to stay where they are, like I said in an earlier post "At the end of the day its a sport and the ambition should be to play at the highest level possible (within the constraints of budgets etc obviously)". I don't think trying to play at the highest level you can is "giving up on" the league you are in otherwise by that logic teams should turn down promotions when they get them.

 

There seems to be a level on entitlement coming out of your posts that Kelty are a junior team and should suck it and go along with SJFA and what other clubs decide and wait around to see what will if anything will happen. Tough titties IMO.

 

 

 

 

[drs]

34 minutes ago, Fifes Elite Force said:

Firstly people on here have said they tried to open talks and nothing happened. I get your argument if the SJFA said after being apporached they wanted change and put together a plan/timeline/a meeting for it to be discussed but that doesn't seem to be forth coming after Keltys efforts. You mentioned persistence in your post, why is it Keltys responsibility to be persistent if they have another avenue they could take? They are 1 club not a governing body.

 

The LL has been in place now for 3 seasons with the chance of entering the SPFL if you win it. That the SJFA appear to have done nothing in that time to facilitate change or at least start an informed discussion around how to become part of the pyramid would appear to be a hideously negligent dereliction of duty.

The SJFA exists to serve the needs of its member clubs - if those clubs want to move onwards there should be the appropriate pathway in place for them to do so.

[Fifes Elite Force]

4 minutes ago, drs said:

The LL has been in place now for 3 seasons with the chance of entering the SPFL if you win it. That the SJFA appear to have done nothing in that time to facilitate change or at least start an informed discussion around how to become part of the pyramid would appear to be a hideously negligent dereliction of duty.

The SJFA exists to serve the needs of its member clubs - if those clubs want to move onwards there should be the appropriate pathway in place for them to do so.

Can't disagree with any of that

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, Fifes Elite Force said:

There seems to be a level on entitlement coming out of your posts that Kelty are a junior team and should suck it and go along with SJFA and what other clubs decide and wait around to see what will if anything will happen. Tough titties IMO.

 

It's actually the opposite. Anyone who knows me knows that I've been vocal on the Juniors being an integral part of the Pyramid and very critical of the SJFA's position on it.  As I said, I had hoped Kelty's ambition would help drive change from within, I'm disappointed that opportunity has gone.

[Burnie_man]

34 minutes ago, drs said:

The LL has been in place now for 3 seasons with the chance of entering the SPFL if you win it. That the SJFA appear to have done nothing in that time to facilitate change or at least start an informed discussion around how to become part of the pyramid would appear to be a hideously negligent dereliction of duty.

The SJFA exists to serve the needs of its member clubs - if those clubs want to move onwards there should be the appropriate pathway in place for them to do so.

Spot on, and negligence/dereliction of duty is fairly apt.

We undoubtedly have a group of Junior clubs who want change, who want to work towards a Licence, who can see that the best future is going to be inclusion in the Pyramid.

How you use that as leverage for change in the Juniors is open to debate but it needs all of them to at least start talking to each other on a serious level (out with SJFA interference) to find common ground and common aims. Speak to the SFA on the challenges facing these clubs in joining the Pyramid (particularly in the West) and find out what is realistically up for discussion with regards to the structure.  At the moment, nobody is talking to anyone and we have to rely of Tom Johnston as the conduit, which is as good as talking to a brick wall.

I’ve said for the last four/five years that clubs who see a future in the Pyramid have to cut out the middle man - SJFA - who will never work in their interests, and engage directly with the SFA (I had hoped it would be the other way round with the SFA eventually engaging with Junior clubs but that’s just not happening).

I hope it doesn’t get to the stage where it’s every club for themselves with a slow trickle of departures into a poorly structured pyramid. I’d rather see the Junior structure be the basis of a reformed Pyramid, but for that to happen attitudes need to change.