Too many clubs?

[Nakamura]

Scotland has a good number of clubs, just too few people. So get busy.

[Burnie_man]

22 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

In what way do we have too many clubs? How will removing 10 of them be of benefit, and to who? Also what benefit will regionalisation bring?

Your silly wee example of midweek fixtures is a nonsense argument. Even if you did remove 10 clubs from the league structure, other clubs would still have to occasionally make a long midweek trip to play in front of a few hundred fans. What's wrong with the exactly? If it wasn't sustainable then loads of clubs would have folded.

See what I mean.

To have 42 clubs playing nationally from a population of 5.5m is insane, to have a large percentage of those clubs playing nationally in front of less than 1,000 fans is insane. I think we have as many clubs playing nationally as Spain, to use one example.

It's not sustainable, take away the SFA/SPFL subsidies, sorry "prize money" and many would struggle. The benefit would be that more local games mean than more fans can get along to matches. I've been to Cliftonhill on a Saturday where 12 Elgin fans were in attendance. I've been to Forthbank on a Saturday where 25 Peterhead fans were in attendance. There are regular social media reports where a minibus load of fans are praised for making crazy midweek journeys (Stranraer last season springs to mind) Bigger Junior clubs take far bigger away supports than that, because they're not travelling large distances on a regular basis.

The benefits are obvious.

[FairWeatherFan]

I'd be quite willing to lose League Two. I would then merge the Championship & League One.

[Jacksgranda]

We've only 4/5 more clubs than the "good old days" of 2 divisions  (of 18 & 19/20) and sectional league cup ties which involved 2 midweek games. Postponements meant midweek fixtures with no doubt some crazy distances involved. Attendances were higher back in the 60s and 70s, but I'm sure expenses were just as a big a proportion of income back then, and there was no (official) sponsorship or TV money, so if prize money and TV money were removed I'm sure clubs would cut their coat accordingly.

In fact the wee teams that are getting castigated here for having the temerity to be in a national league set up might well cope a lot better in such a scenario than the big guns.

[DA Baracus]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

See what I mean.

To have 42 clubs playing nationally from a population of 5.5m is insane, to have a large percentage of those clubs playing nationally in front of less than 1,000 fans is insane. I think we have as many clubs playing nationally as Spain, to use one example.

It's not sustainable, take away the SFA/SPFL subsidies, sorry "prize money" and many would struggle. The benefit would be that more local games mean than more fans can get along to matches. I've been to Cliftonhill on a Saturday where 12 Elgin fans were in attendance. I've been to Forthbank on a Saturday where 25 Peterhead fans were in attendance. There are regular social media reports where a minibus load of fans are praised for making crazy midweek journeys (Stranraer last season springs to mind) Bigger Junior clubs take far bigger away supports than that, because they're not travelling large distances on a regular basis.

The benefits are obvious.

That money is there though, so they clubs are sustainable. It's not going away. A ludicrous argument.

You still haven't said why punting a load of teams would be beneficial. What will it improve? What will it change? Who will benefit and how?
Why is it 'insane' that clubs play in front of 1000 fans? What's wrong with that exactly? And what relevance does the Spanish league set up have to the Scottish game?

Regionalisation will have the same teams playing each other over and over. Derbies will become just another match. Regionalisation would lose clubs fans.

Junior teams seemingly don't want to be in the SPFL, so no idea why you're bringing them in to the argument

[relichtie]

I suggested your regionalisation point to one of the officials of my club and he retorted that we play in the Scottish League not a regional league. I also pointed out that attendances are higher in our local derbies than a match against say Annan . Stranraer but it went down like a lead balloon. I think a regional set up would save a lot of clubs on travel costs at least and as above increase crowds.

[1320Lichtie]

That money is there though, so they clubs are sustainable. It's not going away. A ludicrous argument.

You still haven't said why punting a load of teams would be beneficial. What will it improve? What will it change? Who will benefit and how?
Why is it 'insane' that clubs play in front of 1000 fans? What's wrong with that exactly? And what relevance does the Spanish league set up have to the Scottish game?

Regionalisation will have the same teams playing each other over and over. Derbies will become just another match. Regionalisation would lose clubs fans.

Junior teams seemingly don't want to be in the SPFL, so no idea why you're bringing them in to the argument

Junior fans are fucking clueless. Not worth the effort.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

Some people seem to think im all for reducing clubs but im not.
Sure if football had just been invented then it would make sense to allocate clubs to equal sized catchment areas but thats as far as it goes. Its been too long now to try anything like that. Ship has long sailed

[DA Baracus]

Clubs aren't allocated though. They grew organically, be it from a town's cricketers wanting a way to keep fit in the winter to factory workers forming a team to bigots making a club to channel their hate etc.

[Burnie_man]

58 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

That money is there though, so they clubs are sustainable. It's not going away. A ludicrous argument.

You still haven't said why punting a load of teams would be beneficial. What will it improve? What will it change? Who will benefit and how?
Why is it 'insane' that clubs play in front of 1000 fans? What's wrong with that exactly? And what relevance does the Spanish league set up have to the Scottish game?

Regionalisation will have the same teams playing each other over and over. Derbies will become just another match. Regionalisation would lose clubs fans.

Junior teams seemingly don't want to be in the SPFL, so no idea why you're bringing them in to the argument

It's not a ludicrous argument at all, clubs should be sustainable, take away the handouts and some are not.

Nobody is punting anyone, small clubs playing games regionally makes them more accessible to more fans. Instead of Elgin taking 12 fans to Coatbridge and everyone else sitting at home, they might take 100 to Buckie Thistle which is a good thing.

The relevance of bringing up Spain (or Portugal, or Italy, or Germany etc etc etc) is to illustrate that proportionally, large nations have far less clubs playing nationally. Nations of a similar size to Scotland are lucky to have half the number of clubs playing nationally than we do.

Perhaps you could share the benefits of the current system and persuade me to change my view?

[Burnie_man]

43 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

 

Junior fans are fucking clueless. Not worth the effort.

A surprising statement given your new found love of Lochee United  " Ground was charming IMO. Lochee my local junior team now"

Grow up

[Officer Barbrady]

3 hours ago, CityDave said:

 

When did I claim mergers would work elsewhere?

I'm disappointed, I thought this might have been a debate with an old Caley or Thistle supporter where they would have had a genuine heartfelt point to make.

 

 

Sorry to disappoint, obviously they're the only ones entitled to an opinion on it, then. 

 

I'll let you have it, as i can't really compete with the chip on your shoulder about an outsider commenting on something you think i know nothing about. 

[1320Lichtie]

A surprising statement given your new found love of Lochee United  " Ground was charming IMO. Lochee my local junior team now"

Grow up

On issues regarding the senior game you are

Nobody at any senior part time club is interested in regional football, nobody, this has been done to death a fuckin hunner times on here, funnily enough if I was I'd be down at Thomson Park (I did enjoy it) every week

If Arbroath were playing Forfar, Carnoustie and Brechin every week I wouldn't be interested. I want to watch us compete on a national stage, like everybody else at the club

[Burnie_man]

On issues regarding the senior game you are

Nobody at any senior part time club is interested in regional football, nobody, this has been done to death a fuckin hunner times on here, funnily enough if I was I'd be down at Thomson Park (I did enjoy it) every week

If Arbroath were playing Forfar, Carnoustie and Brechin every week I wouldn't be interested. I want to watch us compete on a national stage, like everybody else at the club

Really? I watch as much Senior football as I do Junior, I follow Scotland home and away. Don't make a fool of yourself by telling someone what they have knowledge of or not when you have no idea who they are, stop assuming.

As for regionalised football, so if Arbroath dropped into the Lowland League you'd stop going? Have East Stirling fans stopped going?

[1320Lichtie]

Really? I watch as much Senior football as I do Junior, I follow Scotland home and away. Don't make a fool of yourself by telling someone what they have knowledge of or not when you have no idea who they are, stop assuming.

As for regionalised football, so if Arbroath dropped into the Lowland League you'd stop going? Have East Stirling fans stopped going?

They won't

And that's a completely different situation

And you don't because you don't support a senior side, there's absolutely no desire for regional football, it could impact us in a very negative way

The fact the only people to ever suggest this should happen is junior fans says it all

[CityDave]

35 minutes ago, Officer Barbrady said:

Sorry to disappoint, obviously they're the only ones entitled to an opinion on it, then. 

 

I'll let you have it, as i can't really compete with the chip on your shoulder about an outsider commenting on something you think i know nothing about. 

I didn't know you were an outsider until you mentioned it on your previous post. I'm disappointed because I thought this might be an old Caley fan on the windup and I might even know who this is. When you mentioned heyday I thought you might have referred to the 1950's or 60's an era I'm not as clear about so might have learned something. I was going to get my old Caley match programs out of the attic and get some attendance stats down.

I'm quite happy with your opinions, see my earlier posts on that, I would prefer though if you could back up some of them that you state as facts with some evidence. No chip on the shoulder, just looking to see if you know what you are talking about.

As for these questions I'll keep it simple, one at a time.

First question - Where did I claim that mergers would work elsewhere?

 

[Burnie_man]

They won't

And that's a completely different situation

And you don't because you don't support a senior side, there's absolutely no desire for regional football, it could impact us in a very negative way

The fact the only people to ever suggest this should happen is junior fans says it all

I don't support a senior side? I was probably at Gayfield before you were born. Stop digging.

Plenty of people within the game, and the media, support a wholesale change to our game, including regionalisation.

So would you watch Arbroath in the LL against Preston Athletic and Cumbernauld Colts?

What are the benefits to our game of staying as we are with small clubs playing nationally in the fourth tier? Spell them out.

[Ira Gaines]

The media supporting it should set alarm bells ringing.

[1320Lichtie]

I don't support a senior side? I was probably at Gayfield before you were born. Stop digging.

Plenty of people within the game, and the media, support a wholesale change to our game, including regionalisation.

What are the benefits to our game of staying as we are with small clubs playing nationally in the fourth tier? Spell them out.

Who cares if you were at Gayfield? Do you support a senior side? No, you don't.

And why should we have to go regional? We're perfectly capable of playing nationally, there are plenty of positives to it and plenty of negatives to us playing regionally.

What teams would we play in this proposed regional set up? Right now we have 9 journeys

Under 20 minutes = 2, Forfar and Montrose

Under an hour = 1, Cowdenbeath

1 hour - 1 hour 30 = 3, Clyde, Stirling, Edinburgh

Over 2 hours 3 = Berwick, Annan, Elgin

We have 6 journeys all season that are over 2 hours long, from Arbroath of course.

Baring in mind most of our players and indeed the market is in the central belt.

We have players coming from Ayrshire, who travel to Perth twice a week and Arbroath every second week. If we were playing teams from in and around us every week it would seriously restrict our market and seriously benefit the clubs based in and around the central belt. There's no way a guy like Ricky Little (one of our best) would be playing for us in a regional set up.

There's no way you could actually fit a regionalised league in, after all there are only 5 clubs at a PT level that are out of the way and no matter how you fixed it you'd still have your long journey to play them. Elgin/Berwick/Peterhead/Stranraer/Annan. Everyone else is within a 2 hour journey.

If however you were to put us in with the local juniors how would that be fair? Our facilities, set up and ground are on a different level to the likes of Panmure, Broughty etc. We also have a fanbase of about 700 average (650 last season/720 season before). We have absolutely no interest in playing these clubs, playing teams like Montrose/Brechin and Forfar every single season would also seriously dilute the Derbies.

I'm already bored of Mo, on the other hand I'm looking forward to Forfar now we've not played them in a while.

And lastly nobody wants it, if we had a desire to go and play locally I'm sure we would just go and do it but we don't, not anyone from the chairman down to the fans. Not a single person.

We have always played senior and nationally, trying to finish as high up as we can on the national stage is what we as fans are interested in. Playing all over the country is part of the appeal. Nobody is interested in getting local bragging rights with the local diddy clubs.

Again if we are perfectly capable of doing this and we are perfectly happy doing this then why should we change to keep people like you who have no interest happy? I fail to see how travelling an hour less round journey on the bus every Saturday would make it a more enjoyable experience as a fan. Lot of shite.

[cmontheloknow]

I don't really know where I stand on the 'national/regional' debate for part-time teams. Ultimately if it's affordable, it's doable. However it is not seen as attractive to most part-time teams outwith the set-up and if you want to set up a genuine pyramid which increases in prestige the higher up you go, that's a problem. I vaguely follow a Conference team and the sides in that league are desperate to get out of it and go up. Teams the league below are desperate to get out and go up, and once up, stay up. That just isn't the case in Scotland. To me that suggests there is a misalignment somewhere. The elephant in the room as I see it is the very different outlook on a successful season between the fans of say Albion Rovers and Pollok. AR clearly are at a higher level onfield yet will likely never see silverware unless it's the 3rd Division trophy while supporters of Pollok are so ambitious for the club onfield that losing a game is a catastrophe and a season is only a success if it has a trophy or two in it somewhere. Yes it is big fish in a small pond stuff, but that also makes it hard to reverse the roles. AR fans probably see the silverware on offer as irrelevant while Lok fans might see playing in a system that they have no hope of ever being a success in as a fallacy... that doesn't really happen in the Juniors as fortunes can turn around for clubs and they can go from being the worst to the best with a bit of investment - i.e. Hurlford.