Too many clubs?

[Officer Barbrady]

Charlie Christie is a fucking moron. You heard him give examples of the players at IC and IT voting almost unanimously in favour, which is fair enough; Inverness is a fine example of why such a thing may work, bur really shouldn't ever be allowed to. 

 

Inverness lost more fans of the game than with one stroke of a pen when it joined its two major clubs than it has gained since....and nominating Angus for the same, synthetic 'neo-soccer' which some believe is the answer to our 'problems' is unfortunately a common attitude among the morons who pollute the game.

 

It really isn't that bad; Christie had the cheek to talk about the 'struggles' of those clubs to 'stay afloat', like its either a) any of his business, or b) even remotely true. None of those four have ever been in such financial difficulty as the two 'massive, big clubs) thirty odd miles down the road. Why not merge those two, into Discovery FC?? Three administrations, and a liquidation from one; and the other constantly pleading poverty despite flogging their team to Celtic every year when they were any good. 

 

 

 

Aye. I fucking thought as much. 

[CityDave]

31 minutes ago, Officer Barbrady said:

Charlie Christie is a fucking moron. You heard him give examples of the players at IC and IT voting almost unanimously in favour, which is fair enough; Inverness is a fine example of why such a thing may work, bur really shouldn't ever be allowed to. 

 

Inverness lost more fans of the game than with one stroke of a pen when it joined its two major clubs than it has gained since....and nominating Angus for the same, synthetic 'neo-soccer' which some believe is the answer to our 'problems' is unfortunately a common attitude among the morons who pollute the game.

 

It really isn't that bad; Christie had the cheek to talk about the 'struggles' of those clubs to 'stay afloat', like its either a) any of his business, or b) even remotely true. None of those four have ever been in such financial difficulty as the two 'massive, big clubs) thirty odd miles down the road. Why not merge those two, into Discovery FC?? Three administrations, and a liquidation from one; and the other constantly pleading poverty despite flogging their team to Celtic every year when they were any good. 

 

 

 

Aye. I fucking thought as much. 

Not debating the rest of your post, the Inverness merger worked in this example but it doesn't mean it would work any where else and I disagree with Christie. What you say is fine by me. The situation up here was a special case that would not apply elsewhere especially not at established historical Scottish League clubs.

I would the question your point on Inverness losing more fans to the game because of it than what the club has gained since. Where did you get idea this from?. Both clubs in the Highland League were very often getting attendances in the hundreds not thousands for regular League and cup games outside the Scottish Cup and ICT since formation has attracted many new young fans to the game that only support Inverness Caley Thistle and not another big team as well.

Many of those supporters that wouldn't support the merged club supported Rangers or Celtic, with maybe a few supporting other Premier League clubs so they were not lost to the game they just went of and supported their big teams only instead. They were only lost to the Highland League like the two clubs. But there are many supporters of either Highland League club who supported either Thistle or Caley and now support the merged club like myself. There are a few others on the forum as well. But then I didn't have an alternative 'big' team option back in the HL days.

edit btw Charlie Christie doesn't speak for all of us up here in Inverness, we went to the same secondary school, he's a couple of years older than me. I certainly know he has always has been a diehard Celtic supporter back then and still is.

There are so much misinformation and assumption much to suit what people want to believe rather than for example going to the trouble of asking these clubs how they are getting on.

[Officer Barbrady]

28 minutes ago, CityDave said:

Not debating the rest of your post, the Inverness merger worked in this example but it doesn't mean it would work any where else and I disagree with Christie. What you say is fine by me. The situation up here was a special case that would not apply elsewhere especially not at established historical Scottish League clubs.

I would the question your point on Inverness losing more fans to the game because of it than what the club has gained since. Where did you get idea this from?. Both clubs in the Highland League were very often getting attendances in the hundreds not thousands for regular League and cup games outside the Scottish Cup and ICT since formation has attracted many new young fans to the game that only support Inverness Caley Thistle and not another big team as well.

Many of those supporters that wouldn't support the merged club supported Rangers or Celtic, with maybe a few supporting other Premier League clubs so they were not lost to the game they just went of and supported their big teams only instead. They were only lost to the Highland League like the two clubs. But there are many supporters of either Highland League club who supported either Thistle or Caley and now support the merged club like myself. There are a few others on the forum as well. But then I didn't have an alternative 'big' team option back in the HL days.

edit btw Charlie Christie doesn't speak for all of us up here in Inverness, we went to the same secondary school, he's a couple of years older than me. I certainly know he has always has been a diehard Celtic supporter back then and still is.

There are so much misinformation and assumption much to suit what people want to believe rather than for example going to the trouble of asking these clubs how they are getting on.

You actually make my own point for me. Caledonian, much more than Thistle, imo could have thrived in the SFL on their own merits. When i say lost to the game, it is entirely because of this deliberate act that when Inverness eventually did have a successful team, it averaged little more than Caley attracted during their heyday.....i recall attendances upwards of 4-5,000, yet when ICT defeated Clyde to all-but-seal the title in 2004, the crowd was given as around 4500.....adding the 'success' of a town the size of yours, and what i'd have imagined to be the history of a club like Clyde, that figure ought to have been much larger, and would have been if it were Caledonian on their own regardless of who they played. 

 

My point stands that ICT got very lucky.....it was a new concept, and it definitely took time to bring  your own locals round. But despite the Cup win, and established in the top flight, i still maintain it is NOT the success story it's painted as. The streets were practically deserted when you had your open top bus, in comparison to had Falkirk beaten you.....the town would have closed for the day. Its a very manufactured, modern-friendly synthetic version of what i believe football to be, if i'm honest....and whether or not Caley or Thistle fans had 'big' teams or not, isn't really important....if this were tried anywhere else, it would 100% fail, purely because anyone who cares about football has a) a team, and b) actually goes to see them.

 

Where would those fictional fans waiting on the chance to go to an Angus Utd match without those pesky Arbroath and Forfar fans square-going each other, actually come from? The only exercise i can see here, is slowly but surely, concerted attempts at demonising the passion of the football supporter. And, as they can't do anything about the big bad Old Firm, are picking on the wee guys. f**k them. 

 

Sterile, neo-soccer might be your thing, and good luck to you. But i'm firmly on the side of those who were betrayed by thst merger, and indeed anyone who finds themselves threatened with it. 

[HibeeJibee]

Even if you classify the Inverness merger as a success - it's an almost unique situation. You had a substantial Scottish town - indeed a city as it became - in an area unrepresented in league football, with 3 HL teams. Two of these merged, joined SFL, and have subsequently achieved a further 3 promotions, cup SF/Finals, a cup win and played in Europe.

Where else could replicate those circumstances?

In somewhere like Fife you've already got clubs like Dunfermline and Raith who've won national trophies, played in the top division in recent times, played in Europe, and so on.

In somewhere like Angus a combined club - even if things went remarkably well - still wouldn't be big enough to reach those heights. Championship would probably be its level.

In both cases there would be a severe impact on crowds, compared to the constituent teams, and arguably less scope for new growth than in Inverness.


There may be an example I've forgotten, but Inverness has been the only successful merger of senior clubs up here since the early decades of Scottish football.

Even then I'm struggling to think of a merger that didn't involve clubs from the same town (e.g. Ayr FC and Ayr Parkhouse).

[FairWeatherFan]

We all know they're really talking about creating a closed shop of some kind when it comes to the too many clubs schtick. Just as what happened with the SPL and what they wanted to do with SPL2/8-8-8.

"We'll take Dunfermline & Raith because they're big enough to support a full time team, but goodbye Cowdenbeath."

"We don't want Angus United. I mean seriously how would that work? The people of Angus will just travel to either of the Dundee clubs or Aberdeen. See proper big time football."

[effeffsee_the2nd]

The inverness story is only a success becuase there isnt realy an alternative story here. And its a one off. The idea works on paper but its fataly flawed as it requires fans to get on board en masse . Even then its still not great.

Even in an ideal world , only a united edinburgh team would be big enough to break the old firm on its own (thats without some other game changer happening at the same time) dundee city fc ? Im not convinced it would be big enough. 10-12 thousand at games if your lucky maybe 20 if theyr having a great season. After all aberdeen are the only (professional) show in town and they could only manage a half arsed challange against the worst celtic team in years in a weak league. And thats one of their better seasons this centuary.

Lets even look at falkirk. The only full time team in the old central region. By getting rid of stenny the shire , alloa and stitling you might ( in this other universe) put a thousand on to the gate. About the same as us having a good season in the premiership would do.

[Officer Barbrady]

Who the hell would seriously consider actually willingly supporting anything remotely resembling any sort of merger whatsoever? Those thousand extra Falkirk fans (if thats even what they'd be called) could be offset by the loss of at least as many Bairns, and rightly so. We don't know how lucky we have it here; the product is far from perfect, but very few clubs are as unsustainable as is being made out. How it can be considered their fault that things aren't working further up, is a mystery. 

 

There are obviously changes needed, that is obvious. But less clubs is not one of them. Ann Budge talked a lot of shite about it, not even considering that Hearts might shop again at Arbroath for another Webster, or Stenny for a Templeton. Or actually pay the proper rate, like they once did. p***ks like her would rather the money pished out of the game, as it continues to, than their place come under threat in the Prem ever again to one of these diddy clubs. 

 

I hope that if Hearts and the rest continue to become consistently shite in Europe, teams from Malta and Gibraltar refuse to play Scottish clubs, as it stunts their development as teams for the proper tests against Albanian and Kosovan opponents. Then see how she fucking well likes that!!

[HibeeJibee]

It would be interesting to know how many among the 3,000-odd home fans at an ICT Premiership game were among the few hundred home fans at Caley and Thistle HL games. I'd suspect most of ICT's home fans didn't previously attend games at all?

[itzdrk]

Merging clubs to improve the national team is the most stupid proposal i have ever heard.  

At its most simple, Scotland play a handful of games a year, compared to a club side playing upwards of 40.  Quite clear all 4 Angus teams are more relevant than the national side. 

The other thing is the contempt that people like Budge show for fans, they acknowledge that most will be lost to the game when saying it so they do know and simply don't care, anything for an extra couple thousand pounds in prize money and Scotland getting beat in June. 

[parsforlife]

Should just commit to the idea fully and become a Scotland fc, with no league to play in the English would be forced to accept us. After 3-4 years waiting for that to happen and another 10 or so fighting through the lower tiers we could become another Aston villa or even a Newcastle, imagine that?! The national team might even become good enough to qualify for major championship play-off matches. sure we might lose them but really who cares, we'll be living the dream.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

Who the hell would seriously consider actually willingly supporting anything remotely resembling any sort of merger whatsoever? Those thousand extra Falkirk fans (if thats even what they'd be called) could be offset by the loss of at least as many Bairns, and rightly so. We don't know how lucky we have it here; the product is far from perfect, but very few clubs are as unsustainable as is being made out. How it can be considered their fault that things aren't working further up, is a mystery. 

 

There are obviously changes needed, that is obvious. But less clubs is not one of them. Ann Budge talked a lot of shite about it, not even considering that Hearts might shop again at Arbroath for another Webster, or Stenny for a Templeton. Or actually pay the proper rate, like they once did. p***ks like her would rather the money pished out of the game, as it continues to, than their place come under threat in the Prem ever again to one of these diddy clubs. 

 

I hope that if Hearts and the rest continue to become consistently shite in Europe, teams from Malta and Gibraltar refuse to play Scottish clubs, as it stunts their development as teams for the proper tests against Albanian and Kosovan opponents. Then see how she fucking well likes that!!

Its not evrn imaginable in reality tho. Something like hearts and hibs or the dundees or angus utd however unpopular, could still look like a merger . If it was the forth valley or lanarkshire teams merging to make super clubs it would be impossible to view that as anything other than falkirk & motherwell under different names. Fans of the smaller teams are few in number and many would just walk away leaving a few dozen following the "merged team" which would make no difference at all

[Officer Barbrady]

You don't believe that Falkirk or Motherwell fans might have their own views on this, also? Sedate happy-clapping isn't something i'd think of either of those clubs' fans, but i'm sure the idea of swallowing up clubs isn't high on the must-do list. 

 

 Look back to the early 60s, and the last genuine attempt at mergers.....ES Clydebank. It's no coincidence that both those clubs, in the ensuing 30/40/50 year period, were dreadfully supported, whatever division they were in. Credit to the locals of both clubs is due, for refusing to simply turn up and support their 'local' team for the sake of it, knowing the sort of schyster b*****ds running it. 

[Tulloch Gorum]

I remember a Falkirk fan on here a while ago (can't remember who) recounting a conversation he'd had with a Rangers fan when the original Airdrieonians folded.  Falkirk had finished 9th in the first division that year, and so would have been relegated had Airdrie not folded.  The Falkirk fan had said something like how he'd much rather be relegated and Airdrie keep going - his team would have a season or so in a lower league, but against that, Airdrie fans were losing their club altogether (or so it seemed at the time...).  And the Rangers fan just couldn't understand this.

Now, I don't know if that's a widespread attitude (Airdrieonians haven't historically been the best-loved of Scotland's smaller clubs), but it's maybe an indication of how some of the bigger clubs' fans would view mergers that were really takeovers.  Falkirk swallowing up Stenny, for instance.  I don't think that most fans of the bigger partner would accept being the "beneficiary" of smaller clubs losing out so utterly.  


 

[Tulloch Gorum]

And for what it's worth, I certainly would not go to watch a club formed by merging Airdrie with anyone else.  You sometimes see a merger with the Rovers being punted by people who don't support either team, but it would never fly.  Neither set of fans would support it, and there's not a wellspring of fans in either town looking for a Monklands FC to follow either.  For clubs that don't enjoy a lot of success, the only things that keeps the hundreds turning out every fortnight are family tradition, loyalty to history, community identity: none of which would apply to a new formation.  Same with a larger Lanarkshire unit.  In fact, for Lanarkshire, there would be even less point than in most part of Scotland: people who want a larger, more successful team to follow can just pop along to Glasgow and pick one of cheeks. 

[vikingTON]

On 9/16/2016 at 16:08, theoriginalhedge said:

Strange that it is the clubs who have been in administration ( or dead altogether) who are now dictating that the smaller , well run  clubs with little or no debt are the cause of Scotland's problems.   Budge need look no further than that circus last weekend to work out where the problems lie. 

Instead of condemning clubs to history would it not be an idea to study exactly the way Barcelona play , train , organise  etc and learn from them how to improve the product  in this country? Then maybe people might start to invest in our game without the need for a massive cull. 

What on earth would be achieved by "studying the way Barcelona play, train, organise etc."? In what way are the methods available to probably the third richest football club in the world a credible benchmark for any Scottish club? Where are the funds to build Scottish La Masia institutes going to come from in the first place?

It's unsurprising to find that after railing against the stupid suggestions of those currently involved in the game, bumpkins like yourself then suggest an alternative that is ten times more ridiculous than merging clubs. Congrats on making Budge's comments look semi-credible by comparison with your fantasist views.

Quote

They tried to get rid of us  in 1964 .  They can try again now .  But one thing is for sure ,  the small clubs will not go down without a scrap. 

Well East Stirling just did; and the trapdoor will see to the rest of the deserving over time. 

[CityDave]

22 hours ago, Officer Barbrady said:

You actually make my own point for me. Caledonian, much more than Thistle, imo could have thrived in the SFL on their own merits. When i say lost to the game, it is entirely because of this deliberate act that when Inverness eventually did have a successful team, it averaged little more than Caley attracted during their heyday.....i recall attendances upwards of 4-5,000, yet when ICT defeated Clyde to all-but-seal the title in 2004, the crowd was given as around 4500.....adding the 'success' of a town the size of yours, and what i'd have imagined to be the history of a club like Clyde, that figure ought to have been much larger, and would have been if it were Caledonian on their own regardless of who they played. 

 

My point stands that ICT got very lucky.....it was a new concept, and it definitely took time to bring  your own locals round. But despite the Cup win, and established in the top flight, i still maintain it is NOT the success story it's painted as. The streets were practically deserted when you had your open top bus, in comparison to had Falkirk beaten you.....the town would have closed for the day. Its a very manufactured, modern-friendly synthetic version of what i believe football to be, if i'm honest....and whether or not Caley or Thistle fans had 'big' teams or not, isn't really important....if this were tried anywhere else, it would 100% fail, purely because anyone who cares about football has a) a team, and b) actually goes to see them.

 

Where would those fictional fans waiting on the chance to go to an Angus Utd match without those pesky Arbroath and Forfar fans square-going each other, actually come from? The only exercise i can see here, is slowly but surely, concerted attempts at demonising the passion of the football supporter. And, as they can't do anything about the big bad Old Firm, are picking on the wee guys. f**k them. 

 

Sterile, neo-soccer might be your thing, and good luck to you. But i'm firmly on the side of those who were betrayed by thst merger, and indeed anyone who finds themselves threatened with it. 

I agree about Caley to a certain extent but who would have backed the club with the cash that was made available to ICT and where would this money come from for Caley to become a serious SFL player or would everyone be content for a club representing a town (later city) the size of Inverness not the Dalneigh area to potter about in the lower two leagues?. See what has happened over the years to Elgin City, a club as big as Caley maybe bigger and with one of the largest supports in the HL, would Caley having gone that way ended up like that or would they have found a sugar daddy like County? Inverness Thistle were struggling badly financially, would they still be around now? Would have Caledonian have to move out of Telford Street to a new ground deemed higher standard and with better parking? We will never know.

Could you tell me when was this heyday?. Both clubs could occasionally attract gates of between 3,000 to 5,500 for Scottish Cup games against top opposition and around 4,000 for derby games when I used to go although all of this tailed off during the late 80's and early 90's. But I'm talking about regular home gates, the bread and butter games against the likes of Lossiemouth, Huntly or Forres Mech at home which would have attracted crowds in the lower hundreds during weekday evening games often only about 300 or so would turn up sometimes less, I should know I was there for almost every game from 1983 onwards.

The supporting a big team factor is very relevant, most Caley and Thistle fans supported either OF or maybe Aberdeen or another big name Scottish Club along side supporting the local football club that represented their area of the town. As I said before I didn't support any big team so when Caley disappeared from football so did I for a couple of years, before coming round to support a football club that represented Inverness in the SFL. I doubt those Celtic and Rangers supporting Caley or Thistle fans were lost to the game though. I know of a few of them, many were the diehards who stood in the Howden End and were among the 50 or so rebels that protested at the last game. I wonder if they often take the supporters buses down to Ibrox or Celtic Park now.

Would these fans of lets say the OF have abandoned their support for their big team to focus on their home town club???

Certainly the influence of Celtic and Rangers on the football supporting population of Inverness has been the biggest factor in why the club's attendances could be better, but its the same in every town and city in Scotland. Its not something to be brushed aside to prove a point over attendances either. Some people have a rose tinted view of the past and how wonderful it was watching football in the good old days, big crowds every game etc. Fortunately I'm not one of them, I do remember some really poorly attended Caledonian games especially in the early 90's even against team that in the past would have seen us having an attendance that rivaled a second tier SFL club at the time.

edit: I've highlighted some of your points, could you provide evidence of these rather than opinions to back them up, cheers.

 

[Officer Barbrady]

I'd be happy to, but you keep answering your own questions, then rhetorically asking more in the same sentence, which is making it difficult to argue a straightforward point with you, if i'm honest. I'll try though. 

 

I only set foot in Telford Street once, for a pre-season friendly during a family holiday. But i saw it on Spotscene when you defeated the likes of Airdrie, Clyde, St.Johnstone( perhaps?) among others, and will take that rather important fact as being a crowd resembling what you could call a 'heyday'.

 

You seem to be stuck on this 'what do YOU know' mentality over this with me, despite the fact you have proven my argument for me.....simply, more people in Inverness were bothered about the town's representation in competitions pre-merger, than they have ever been since. We'll never know, but if either Caledonian or Thistle went into the league seperately, they would be at least averaging what ICT have gotten through the gates, if not exceeded it, division-for-division. I can't provide a fact for that, any more than you can that mergers elsewhere will aid the game one bit. But i'm closer to being correct by a million miles. 

[Burnie_man]

Certainly the suggestion of merging clubs is clearly insane, almost all football fans can see that.

What is true however is that we have too many clubs playing nationally for the size of nation that we are. Reduce this figure to perhaps 32 clubs and bring in regionalisation.

Problem with that of course is self interest, too many people with puffed out chests and blazers who like the status of being  a league club that makes 300 mile round trips on a Tuesday for a league game in front of 300 fans, 8 of which are yours.

That's as insane as merging clubs.

[CityDave]

13 minutes ago, Officer Barbrady said:

I'd be happy to, but you keep answering your own questions, then rhetorically asking more in the same sentence, which is making it difficult to argue a straightforward point with you, if i'm honest. I'll try though. 

 

I only set foot in Telford Street once, for a pre-season friendly during a family holiday. But i saw it on Spotscene when you defeated the likes of Airdrie, Clyde, St.Johnstone( perhaps?) among others, and will take that rather important fact as being a crowd resembling what you could call a 'heyday'.

 

You seem to be stuck on this 'what do YOU know' mentality over this with me, despite the fact you have proven my argument for me.....simply, more people in Inverness were bothered about the town's representation in competitions pre-merger, than they have ever been since. We'll never know, but if either Caledonian or Thistle went into the league seperately, they would be at least averaging what ICT have gotten through the gates, if not exceeded it, division-for-division. I can't provide a fact for that, any more than you can that mergers elsewhere will aid the game one bit. But i'm closer to being correct by a million miles. 

 

When did I claim mergers would work elsewhere?

I'm disappointed, I thought this might have been a debate with an old Caley or Thistle supporter where they would have had a genuine heartfelt point to make.

 

 

[DA Baracus]

51 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Certainly the suggestion of merging clubs is clearly insane, almost all football fans can see that.

What is true however is that we have too many clubs playing nationally for the size of nation that we are. Reduce this figure to perhaps 32 clubs and bring in regionalisation.

Problem with that of course is self interest, too many people with puffed out chests and blazers who like the status of being  a league club that makes 300 mile round trips on a Tuesday for a league game in front of 300 fans, 8 of which are yours.

That's as insane as merging clubs.

In what way do we have too many clubs? How will removing 10 of them be of benefit, and to who? Also what benefit will regionalisation bring?

Your silly wee example of midweek fixtures is a nonsense argument. Even if you did remove 10 clubs from the league structure, other clubs would still have to occasionally make a long midweek trip to play in front of a few hundred fans. What's wrong with the exactly? If it wasn't sustainable then loads of clubs would have folded.