Too many clubs?

[relichtie]

On Scotland's Game tonight 15th September it was suggested that our game has too many clubs and the amalgamation of the 4 Angus clubs for instance was suggested as a way for this area to create a club capable of reaching the higher levels of the leagues. As a fan of Arbroath I am sceptical if this would produce the desired results. My misgivings are

1 Where would the club play? Forfar and Montrose have almost perfect playing plastic surfaces. Arbroath with all 4 sides with cover probably the better terracing and Brechin with arguably the best stand behind one of the goals.

2 If a central area was selected would the fans travel to there?

3 When the Inverness clubs amalgamated they joined the Caley blue with the Thistle red and black but the strip is now predominantly blue now. What colours would the Angus United play in?

There will be many other reasons and misgivings by other fans and would the Fife clubs be encouraged to follow or Stirling Falkirk Stenny Alloa join forces or other clubs close to each other.

Our national side has failed to reach a major finals for almost 2 decades now but are the fans of the smaller clubs or indeed the larger clubs willing to sacrifice themselves in the hope that Scotland can qualify for a future World Cup or Euro Championship?

Many fans will feel angry at the thought of joining with their former "enemies" but let's have reasonable discussion please.

[Zen Archer (Raconteur)]

Is this a response to Ann Budge doing a 'Salieri'?

It wasn't that long ago that her club wanted to swallow up Hibs.

[tamthebam]

I've always said in response- if the argument is that merging 4 Angus clubs would make a stronger team then surely this could be scaled up to merging Celtic and Rangers so that there's one big team in Scotland's biggest city. What's stopping that except outdated sectarianism? 

Interesting also that of the clubs that have gone bust in the last 20-25 years none of them have been Montrose, Arbroath, Forfar Atheltic or Brechin. A lot have come from that footballing hotbed, the West of Scotland.. 

 

[1320Lichtie]

Good discussion about this on the BBC show thread itself

My contribution

What I don't get is its not even like we're the worst supported, us 600-700, Forfar 500-600, Mo and Brechin 400-500. Why not Stirling/Alloa/Stenny and Clyde? Or Albion/Airdrie/QP? Sure there'll be other examples but we're always picked on.

Get Budge to team up with Hubs like Serge mentioned, challenge the OF, surely that would achieve more than an Angus team.

Also less teams = less players playing senior football!!!!! Mind blowing.

The best contribution

Step 1: Merge Angus clubs.
Step 2: Install WiFi at Angus United Stadium.
Step 3: Await World Cup glory.

[WaffenThinMint]

There is as many clubs required as there are players wishing to play football & fans wishing to support a local club.

With the potential for clubs to now drop down into the Highlands or Lowlands, over time the national league will sort itself out the same way it did in England.

If that means some of the Angus clubs drop out of the national set up - so be it. If it means the locals start giving a proper stuff about their clubs & start to actively support it so they don't drop out - & the clubs start to show their potential at last - equally so be it.

[parsforlife]

It is strange with it being such a great idea that nobody proposes there own club merge with others.

[Ross.]

8 hours ago, WaffenThinMint said:

There is as many clubs required as there are players wishing to play football & fans wishing to support a local club.

With the potential for clubs to now drop down into the Highlands or Lowlands, over time the national league will sort itself out the same way it did in England.

If that means some of the Angus clubs drop out of the national set up - so be it. If it means the locals start giving a proper stuff about their clubs & start to actively support it so they don't drop out - & the clubs start to show their potential at last - equally so be it.

This is exactly it. Extend the pyramid structure and let every club find their level.

[SpoonTon]

It's a ridiculous and mindless suggestion.

To take the example in another direction. North Ayrshire has no senior clubs and a bigger population than Angus. Does this mean that we should be seeking to create a North Ayrshire team for the senior leagues? No, because next to no-one would be interested. With a proper pyramid system in place, perhaps over time a team from North Ayrshire would emerge, but people in Largs, Kilwinning, Irvine, Ardrossan, etc. are not going to be interested in a North Ayrshire super club. And it's no as if North Ayrshire not having a club is a significant help to the current attendances of Kilmarnock and Ayr. People making this suggestion are clueless about the nature of the support for Scottish football clubs. 

[vikingTON]

More relegation from League Two is needed to flush out the permadiddies. 

[theoriginalhedge]

Strange that it is the clubs who have been in administration ( or dead altogether) who are now dictating that the smaller , well run  clubs with little or no debt are the cause of Scotland's problems.   Budge need look no further than that circus last weekend to work out where the problems lie. 

Instead of condemning clubs to history would it not be an idea to study exactly the way Barcelona play , train , organise  etc and learn from them how to improve the product  in this country? Then maybe people might start to invest in our game without the need for a massive cull. 

 

They tried to get rid of us  in 1964 .  They can try again now .  But one thing is for sure ,  the small clubs will not go down without a scrap. 

[lubo_blaha]

Budge didn't mention the prospect of the Angus clubs merging, it was Charlie Christie. Why are people getting so worked up about a suggestion from an ex-player with no influence on the game? You'd with the way people are talking that the SPFL had actually launched proposals for this to happen.

[theoriginalhedge]

2 minutes ago, lubo_blaha said:

Budge didn't mention the prospect of the Angus clubs merging, it was Charlie Christie. Why are people getting so worked up about a suggestion from an ex-player with no influence on the game? You'd with the way people are talking that the SPFL had actually launched proposals for this to happen.

No smoke without fire. 

[Skyline Drifter]

13 minutes ago, lubo_blaha said:

Budge didn't mention the prospect of the Angus clubs merging, it was Charlie Christie. Why are people getting so worked up about a suggestion from an ex-player with no influence on the game? You'd with the way people are talking that the SPFL had actually launched proposals for this to happen.

No, but she did absolutely advocate that there were far too many senior league clubs for a country of Scotland's size. You're splitting hairs a bit there.

Also whilst people are getting on their high horse about clubs being "well run" and not anywhere near admin and not the worst supported, the suggestion wasn't made for that reason, it was more about developing the game and concentrating resources in one bigger club.

Personally though I reckon it's a non starter. It's not merging clubs that will cure our game's ills.

[lubo_blaha]

No, but she did absolutely advocate that there were far too many senior league clubs for a country of Scotland's size. You're splitting hairs a bit there.

Also whilst people are getting on their high horse about clubs being "well run" and not anywhere near admin and not the worst supported, the suggestion wasn't made for that reason, it was more about developing the game and concentrating resources in one bigger club.

Personally though I reckon it's a non starter. It's not merging clubs that will cure our game's ills.

I don't think she was proposing that these clubs shouldn't exist at all though, unless I'm mistaken. She was more getting at the idea that there are too many clubs within the SPFL I think. People on this and the Scotland's Game thread are getting very worked up about the specific issue of Angus clubs merging which has only been mentioned by Christie, not anyone in any kind of authority.

I completely agree with your last paragraph btw. The ICT situation was fairly unique in terms of the circumstances which allowed it to be a success.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

Ah this old chestnut again. The problem has never been that theres not enough people to support the clubs. Its that too many people outwith glasgow support the old firm. Its always been that old firm fans outnumber falkirk fans in this area. How many of them actualy go to the games through there is a different story obviously but if everyone in this area who went to football supported teams in this area then they would have more money and therefore better players. You cant force it tho. People are free to support who ever they want. Go back and think of something else instead of trotting out the same old pish weve heard for donkeys!

[relichtie]

I started this thread to see if most fans of smaller clubs are of a similar opinion to myself. It seems most are. What the owners of the so called big clubs don't seem to recognise is that small clubs are more of a community set up and serve that purpose. While I would be ecstatic if Arbroath reached the Premier League I am also a realist who will most likely never see this come to pass however I will continue to support them while they exist but could not promise the same for an Angus United or whatever name was adopted.

[jmothecat]

I think there are precisely two too many clubs and both are currently in the Premiership.

[Redstarstranraer]

Not this pish again.

It's quite clear to anyone who actually follows football that if you merge two clubs you don't simply end up with a new side that now has the combined fanbase of both and is hence a much bigger club than either.  As everyone knows the fans of the clubs concerned are far more likely to walk away from the game entirely (or just start supporting Real Madrid or Juventus via their TV screens) or go off and start up some sort of phoenix club that they can follow as a continuation of the old.  If you tried the suggested 'FC Angus' model, for example, playing somewhere in a field near Aberlemno maybe, all that would happen is 'Arbroath 2016' or 'FC City of Brechin' springing up, and no interest at all in your new club.

The real issue I have with this though is what problem is this meant to solve exactly?  We keep getting told be it by Charlie Christie or Ann Budge that this is part of a 'solution' without anyone really articulating what the problem is that this would address and how.  If it's merely about merged clubs competing at a higher level and getting promoted then the glaringly obvious point is that they could only do so at the expense of the existing 'bigger' sides.  How does that 'improve' the game exactly?  Also presumably if we keep the same size league other 'diddy' clubs would just step up to take their place and continue to offend the Christies and Budges of the world by their mere existence.  I'm assuming though the unspoken motivation here is a smaller league with the revenues divvied up between fewer sides. 

If there were fewer sides sharing the same cash then they ought to be better resourced, but with the guaranteed loss of fans the new clubs would have to rely extremely heavily on prize money and TV rights etc., with no guarantee of success.  More importantly this would do nothing to actually improve the standard of football.  If these clubs were merged, even if it worked and they got higher attendances, all they could do is pay higher wages.  Paying the same players higher wages wouldn't make them any better. Presumably of course they could get in more expensive imports, but there's no evident causal link between clubs getting richer and the standard of player produced domestically improving.  You only have to look at the English game to see that.  You can also look at the English system to see a myriad of non-league sides fully integrated into a pyramid and doing just fine.  You don't hear the English media and footballing bureaucrats expounding the idea that they're swamped with too many diddy sides and that Chester and Macclesfield ought to merge into one Cheshire Super Club either, for some reason.

So if it isn't about player development (and I really can't see how that angle could be argued) then perhaps it's about financial stability?  Except as has been pointed out above the teams cited as prime candidates for mergers are actually doing quite alright, certainly they're no worse at balancing their books than premiership sides.  Budge in particular is fond of the 'what works best for you' argument, seemingly determined to ignore the fact that the League One and Two clubs are currently surviving just fine playing in a national league set up.

Even if they chucked the likes of Stranraer, East Fife or Elgin out of the SPFL these clubs would carry on as there are fans who want to follow them and players willing to accept a relative pittance to turn out for them.  There might be a load of problems in the Scottish game, but 'too many clubs' isn't one of them.  Especially disappointed to hear this tripe regurgitated when we are at last moving towards some sort of functioning pyramid.

[theoriginalhedge]

6 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

No, but she did absolutely advocate that there were far too many senior league clubs for a country of Scotland's size. You're splitting hairs a bit there.

Also whilst people are getting on their high horse about clubs being "well run" and not anywhere near admin and not the worst supported, the suggestion wasn't made for that reason, it was more about developing the game and concentrating resources in one bigger club.

Personally though I reckon it's a non starter. It's not merging clubs that will cure our game's ills.

I am still a bit annoyed that not one person on that programme stood up and said the product on show  in Scotland is sub standard and maybe that is why crowds are dwindling.  Instead of tinkering with league sizes and introducing sub standard foreign teams to play in Scottish Cup competitions,  why not address the real issues . Send coaches to Europe to study training techniques .  Techniques which keep the brain active for 90 mins.......active enough to be able to read the game and understand what your fellow player is likely to do .  God knows what they teach at Largs but it certainly doesn't reflect well on the finished product served up to the paying public. 

[relichtie]

An interesting point was from Craig Brown about trying to introduce a rule that clubs had to have a percentage of young players in their team every game similar to the French model which produced a winning nation. The idea was vetoed by the Old Firm which proves they have really no interest in advancing the national teams fortunes.