Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[Meth Damon]

1 minute ago, NotThePars said:

 

She's suggested it today. Quote's in this article. Going off what Hunt has said and the signs are fairly clear there. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-suggests-nhs-doctors-from-overseas-only-welcome-until-2025_uk_57f365d1e4b056365584a252?z1jmpt28zj6im5cdi

 

So why is training our own doctors and being able to rely on British doctors a bad thing?

[Mackie The Staggie]

1 hour ago, Michael W said:

Can anyone find the May quotes about doctors? All I can find is Hunt saying more doctor training places will be available from 2018/19 so the NHS can be self sufficient instead of recruiting huge numbers by abroad. 2024/25 was mentioned but that's when they would've completed their degrees. I can't find anything from May on the subject. 

Not quite seen send 'em back type rhetoric but perhaps I missed it. 

Not the best source, but it does carry the direct quote from May - http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-suggests-nhs-doctors-from-overseas-only-welcome-until-2025_uk_57f365d1e4b056365584a252

Quote

 

Yes. There will be staff here from overseas in that interim period until the further number of British doctors are able to be trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals.

“We will ensure the numbers are there. But I think it’s right that we say we want to see more British doctors in our health service.”

 

She doesn't directly say that they'll be sent back, but in the current climate where foreign nationals are wary of their status within the UK in the aftermath of Brexit, the above does nothing to calm that fear down.

 

Personaly speaking, don't care where my doctor comes from, as long as they can diagnose any medical aliment I may have then that's good enough for me

[Michael W]

3 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

 

She's suggested it today. Quote's in this article. Going off what Hunt has said and the signs are fairly clear there. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-suggests-nhs-doctors-from-overseas-only-welcome-until-2025_uk_57f365d1e4b056365584a252?z1jmpt28zj6im5cdi

Thank you. BBC Breakfast explains why I wouldn't have seen it. 

We do need more UK doctors, to be fair - relying on immigration to plug a 25% gap is a disaster waiting to happen, particularly with leaving the EU and immigration to the UK potentially looking much less attractive. Whilst I don't think doctors will be told "thank you, now sod off", to say what May has is appalling. 

May has had an absolute howler of week. Whilst I appreciate she is in a difficult position at the moment, her failure to commit to absolutely anything is fast becoming tiresome and is quickly going to result in real damage being caused. 

[NotThePars]

8 minutes ago, iknowwheremaddieis said:

 

So why is training our own doctors and being able to rely on British doctors a bad thing?

It's good that the relationship between the government and junior doctors is the best it's ever been so that we'll have plenty of willing recruits into the professsion over the next decade.

[Michael W]

9 minutes ago, Mackie The Staggie said:

Not the best source, but it does carry the direct quote from May - http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-suggests-nhs-doctors-from-overseas-only-welcome-until-2025_uk_57f365d1e4b056365584a252

She doesn't directly say that they'll be sent back, but in the current climate where foreign nationals are wary of their status within the UK in the aftermath of Brexit, the above does nothing to calm that fear down.

 

Personaly speaking, don't care where my doctor comes from, as long as they can diagnose any medical aliment I may have then that's good enough for me

No, I wholeheartedly agree with you - use of "interim period" pretty much says it all. Utterly dismal from May. 

I don't care where my doctor is from either - if they are qualified and speak English (and they won't be hired if they can't), it doesn't matter. 

[Meth Damon]

5 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

It's good that the relationship between the government and junior doctors is the best it's ever been so that we'll have plenty of willing recruits into the professsion over the next decade.

Good job deflecting. 

So what country would you prefer our doctors come from? Or is "anyone not British" good enough?

[NotThePars]

Just now, iknowwheremaddieis said:

Good job deflecting. 

So what country would you prefer our doctors come from? Or is "anyone not British" good enough?

 nae danger, L4L.

[NotThePars]

7 minutes ago, Michael W said:

No, I wholeheartedly agree with you - use of "interim period" pretty much says it all. Utterly dismal from May. 

I don't care where my doctor is from either - if they are qualified and speak English (and they won't be hired if they can't), it doesn't matter. 

So do most people while everyone will acknowledge and accept that we are heavily reliant on bringing in foreign doctors. This is why what May and Hunt are saying is wilfully stupid. There's no chance of them plugging the gap while Hunt completely alienates anyone thinking of joining the profession in this country. It's fascinating to see opinion polls supporting that May has done a good job as PM when she's coming across as an ideological dinosaur on grammar schools and dangerously stupid on Brexit and this.

[Meth Damon]

2 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

 nae danger, L4L.

Thanks for admitting defeat saves me spending a couple of hours getting you telt.

[Michael W]

1 minute ago, NotThePars said:

So do most people while everyone will acknowledge and accept that we are heavily reliant on bringing in foreign doctors. This is why what May and Hunt are saying is wilfully stupid. There's no chance of them plugging the gap while Hunt completely alienates anyone thinking of joining the profession in this country. It's fascinating to see opinion polls supporting that May has done a good job as PM when she's coming across as an ideological dinosaur on grammar schools and dangerously stupid on Brexit and this.

May has done a good job in doing nothing, which was probably welcomed after the fallout from the vote. Cameron was also damaged beyond repair by the campaign, so the change was welcomed. 

Given recent events, I imagine her popularity will start to take a downturn. The indecisiveness cannot continue for long, and her apparent preference for a "Hard Brexit" is at risk of causing great damage before we start to leave. Unless she is saying things to placate the more vociferous leavers (in itself a dangerous strategy), I'm not sure why she'd give that impression - businesses will most certainly not like the noises they're hearing at the moment.  

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

It's about bloody time we sent old Dr Foreigner back to Bongo Bongo Land and replace him with unemployed British steelworkers and soldiers

[Redstarstranraer]

2 hours ago, iknowwheremaddieis said:

 

So why is training our own doctors and being able to rely on British doctors a bad thing?

Nobody is saying training our own doctors is a 'bad thing'.  As it stands the vast majority of doctors in the NHS are British.  Nobody here has argued that having British doctors is a 'bad thing', or is complaining that when they go to see their GP or a doctor in a hospital he/she might be British rather than a foreigner.  So all in all a pretty absurd statement.

The point is a large proportion of doctors (and other staff in the NHS) are foreigners, both from inside and outside the EU.  If they are all told, as seems to be the suggestion, to sling their hook by 2025 there will be a shortage of staff in the health service.  The NHS has only been (actively) recruiting from overseas because of a shortage of qualified Brits to fill their massive list of vacancies, not out of some bizarre preference for foreigners over folk born in the UK.  It's all very well and good saying 'we'll just train our own' but neither Theresa May or Jeremy Hunt can simply create tens of thousands of doctors by decree.  They can fund more training places, but this isn't some Soviet-style command economy where they can actually direct school leavers to take up those places.  Airily promising that 'Brits will do it' doesn't guarantee the requisite number of UK school leavers will suddenly want to embark on one of the longest, most intensive and, most importantly, expensive degree courses on offer to them, or that a suitable number of qualified school leavers will exist to take up these places.  Or that they will all successfully complete their training in the required numbers and then want to work for the NHS when qualified.  It's also absurd to think that the number of staff removed from the NHS because of such a measure would be balanced out by trying to force medical graduates to stay in the UK.  That's just a gimmick.

In terms of the numbers being quoted at present it's been stated about a quarter of NHS doctors are from overseas.  Hunt supposedly wants to increase the number of places on medical courses by 'up to a quarter'.  That's only a potential 1,500 extra doctors a year, and the extra doctors won't start to be trained until the 2018/19 academic year.  It takes about 5/6 years of study and about another 5 years of clinical training to fully qualify as a doctor.  Laughable to think that would be enough to actually replace all the foreigners by 2025 then.

The same holds true for nursing and all other auxiliary staff.  Worth noting as well with their onslaught against junior doctors the Tories have managed to make entering the profession the least attractive it's been for decades just at the time they supposedly want to embark on a major recruitment drive.  Hard to see why a lot of overseas staff would stick it out now to 2025 if they've essentially been told that's the cut off date and after that they can get out.  Taking up any post here will be much less attractive if it is only ever going to be an 'interim' appointment, pending a suitably qualified native taking over.

This is what Brexit could lead to, a drastic reduction in the potential pool of qualified staff in industries and services which require a highly-skilled workforce without any guarantee we will be able to retrain or re-skill the UK workforce in order to fill the shortages thus created.  Everyone wants British school leavers to get high-skilled, well-remunerated work, including in the health service, but at present there is little realistic likelihood of the UK being able to produce enough doctors to satisfy demand.  Certainly not by 2025, if ever.  This holds true for large sectors of the economy, not just the NHS.

It's ridiculous to tell highly-skilled professionals who have made their life here and contributed immensely to society to sod off just because they're foreigners.  Especially ridiculous to put an arbitrary date on when they have to get out without any realistic hope of being able to replace them by that date.  By all means put incentives in place for British schoolkids to want to be doctors and a system of education in place that helps them to be able to achieve the standards required to be doctors.  If there is a shortage of qualified staff available in this country by all means increase the number of trainees and start planning for the future to help reduce that shortfall.  Saying that within a decade all the foreigners should get out and after that, even if we can't find a Brit to do the job, we aren't going to hire foreigners is just stupidity.

[doulikefish]

There must be thousands of unemployed doctors due to these pesky foreign types grrrrr

[Alan Stubbs]

Reading the news today, I'm genuinely torn between wanting to greet and laugh my cock off at the absolute fucking nick of Britain. What a beamer.

[NotThePars]

Amber Rudd now claiming only select universities will be able to take in foreign students. This can be taken as a deliberate targeting of the mid level former polytechnics and colleges surely?

[NotThePars]

Reading the news today, I'm genuinely torn between wanting to greet and laugh my cock off at the absolute fucking nick of Britain. What a beamer.

Absolute nick of us voting to stay with them. What a riddy.

[Alan Stubbs]

Question for the economists. I've been saving for plans involving staying in Europe for a while, not long after the supposed trigger date.

Is it with taking the hit on Euros before Britain pans itself in any further, or is there any prospect of it bouncing about a bit between now and then?

[Colkitto]

There is absolutely no shadow of doubt that the whole Brexit thing is first and foremost about immigration. Everything else is secondary, including the economy.

Everything is tied into controlling the borders. They would rather trade with the former colonies like Australia and Canada than trade with the EU.

They want the Empire back and Britania ruling the waves. It's cloud cuckoo land but it's also frightening! 

 

[Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo]

It is much, much more cost effective to let other countries train up our doctors. It's like paying extra for your own country's racism and xenophobia.

20 minutes ago, Alan Stubbs said:

Question for the economists. I've been saving for plans involving staying in Europe for a while, not long after the supposed trigger date.

Is it with taking the hit on Euros before Britain pans itself in any further, or is there any prospect of it bouncing about a bit between now and then?

Anything could happen to the rate. The reason to buy now is certainty. You'll know exactly how much you have and can plan accordingly. It all depends how much of a risk lover you are whether to stick or twist.

[Michael W]

1 hour ago, Alan Stubbs said:

Question for the economists. I've been saving for plans involving staying in Europe for a while, not long after the supposed trigger date.

Is it with taking the hit on Euros before Britain pans itself in any further, or is there any prospect of it bouncing about a bit between now and then?

I doubt it'll go up by any significant margin any time soon, but may move away slighty from its 52 week low. Doubt it'll rise by more than 3%, to be honest. The pattern since the vote has tended to show a recovery after a big slump, but then followed by another big slump touching the 52 week again. 

It's a gamble. If the UK economic figures continue to be quite resiliant, it will shelter against damage. Basically it's you against monthly data and things Theresa May says. I'd be tempted to hedge by buying some now.