Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[RiG]

12 hours ago, rw89 said:

lul wut? Nobody has a clue about Labour's plans for Brexit. They avoid the topic at all costs where possible. They're as clueless as the Tories on the matter. 

Agreed. Corbyn has asked something like 1 question on Brexit in the last ten months (Source: Private Eye) which is insane given the shambles on show from the Tories trying to negotiate with the EU. For all the mess they are making of it Corbyn and company aren't exactly doing much to offer an alternative approach.

[Broken Algorithms]

1 hour ago, RiG said:

Agreed. Corbyn has asked something like 1 question on Brexit in the last ten months (Source: Private Eye) which is insane given the shambles on show from the Tories trying to negotiate with the EU. For all the mess they are making of it Corbyn and company aren't exactly doing much to offer an alternative approach.

"Jobs first Brexit" just as bad as "Strong and Stable" or "Red, White and Blue Brexit". Soundbites made up in focus groups which the political parties think will keep people ticking over.

[doulikefish]

 
Quite amazing that people can turn yet another embarrassment for the Tories into an excuse to bash Jeremy Corbyn.
 
Have you ever considered jobs working for the Express?
 

Im assuming you quoted me by mistake as my post was clearly about tory infighting

[Bully Wee Villa]

Yes, apologies. Will edit.

[Suspect Device]

2 hours ago, RiG said:

Agreed. Corbyn has asked something like 1 question on Brexit in the last ten months (Source: Private Eye) which is insane given the shambles on show from the Tories trying to negotiate with the EU. For all the mess they are making of it Corbyn and company aren't exactly doing much to offer an alternative approach.

Better to stay silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Labour are not exactly all pulling in the same direction on Brexit either. Their best tactic is to let the Tories look like the only shambles in town.

[Granny Danger]

4 minutes ago, Suspect Device said:

Better to stay silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Labour are not exactly all pulling in the same direction on Brexit either. Their best tactic is to let the Tories look like the only shambles in town.

That’s a fair enough strategy up to a point but there becomes a time when folk who may be considering voting Labour will want to know what is on offer.

It’s an irony that the anti-Corbynites in the PLP may be reluctant to take him on due to previous bloody noses given the potential and growing popularity of a softer Brexit position.

[Sooky]

Fair play to the rebels, tbh. It's always nice to see an overzealous executive be put in their place somewhat. It always seems to be a fairly sensible amendment.

Sounds like the Labour whips done a far better job than their Tory counterparts. Only 2 Labour Brexiteers voted with the governemnt, when they were expecting around 8 at the start of the day (which would have won it). 

It also serves as another reminder that on any unpopular bill, it only takes a handful of committed and passionate Tory MPs to sink legislation.

I'd also be very intrigued to have heard the extent of this conversation:

[John Lambies Doos]

Fair play to the rebels, tbh. It's always nice to see an overzealous executive be put in their place somewhat. It always seems to be a fairly sensible amendment.
Sounds like the Labour whips done a far better job than their Tory counterparts. Only 2 Labour Brexiteers voted with the governemnt, when they were expecting around 8 at the start of the day (which would have won it). 
It also serves as another reminder that on any unpopular bill, it only takes a handful of committed and passionate Tory MPs to sink legislation.
I'd also be very intrigued to have heard the extent of this conversation:

Sink the UK legislation but not the EU's. EU will be holding UK to ransom due to its utter stupidity

[wastecoatwilly]

Brexit aint going to happen too much dosh involved plus protecting their investments.
The people that voted to leave are going to go TONTO.

[zidane's child]

39 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

Brexit aint going to happen too much dosh involved plus protecting their investments.
The people that voted to leave are going to go TONTO.

We will leave sadly. It will undermine the whole democratic process and it will turn people away if we don't leave 

[banana]

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/12/14/brexit-appealed-to-white-working-class-men-who-feel-society-no-longer-values-them/

Quote

The Brexit referendum exposed deep political divisions within British society, and more than a year after that vote, those divisions show no signs of disappearing.  Although the Leave campaign was carried to victory on the back of a broad coalition, one of its striking features was high levels of support for Brexit among white working-class men without a college education – a group that is also especially likely to vote for right-populist candidates in other countries.  Why is there such strong support for right-populist causes and candidates among the white working class?

In both the media and scholarly commentary, discussion of this issue has been dominated by a debate about whether rising support for right populism is rooted in economic or cultural developments. On the one hand, some interpret support for right-wing populism as a rejection of multicultural discourse and post-materialist values. On the other hand, other analysts emphasise the degree to which support for populism is linked with economic distress and insecurity. With regard to Brexit, the former present evidence that those in the Leave camp were driven by perceived cultural threats to national identity, while the latter point out that regional unemployment was strongly associated with support for leaving the European Union.

However, we think that asking whether economic or cultural developments were more important to such outcomes is to ask the wrong question.  There are good reasons for believing that economic and cultural developments have operated together to increase support for populism. The more important question, then, is not whether populism is driven by either economic or cultural factors—but rather how economic and cultural forces might combine to shape the populist politics of our time.

 

[John Lambies Doos]

52% of people voted to leave the EU. Leaving means leaving Single Market, Customs Union and EU institutions and Laws. I hate the idea we are leaving but anything less than total removal of above is an affront to democracy. To say people didn't know what they were voting for is wrong. You are either in it or not. At that stage you can negotiate access but it will be at a heavy price. Britain has fucked up here and will have to live with it.

[welshbairn]

6 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

52% of people voted to leave the EU. Leaving means leaving Single Market, Customs Union and EU institutions and Laws. I hate the idea we are leaving but anything less than total removal of above is an affront to democracy. To say people didn't know what they were voting for is wrong. You are either in it or not. At that stage you can negotiate access but it will be at a heavy price. Britain has fucked up here and will have to live with it.

Boris Johnson: UK will 'still have access to single market’ despite Brexit  Sunday 26 June 2016

Edited December 15, 2017 by welshbairn

[DrewDon]

 

[John Lambies Doos]

Boris Johnson: UK will 'still have access to single market’ despite Brexit  Sunday 26 June 2016

Don't trust politicians m8. It's fairly simple. Britain is out. If it wants access to SM it pays for it.

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, John Lambies Doos said:

 

Don't trust politicians m8. It's fairly simple. Britain is out. If it wants access to SM it pays for it.

 

The voters were told that leaving the EU meant staying in the Single Market and we'd save a packet, so it's no affront to democracy for them to be allowed to change their minds when it turns out that's not the case.

[Fullerene]

I think it like cancelling a direct debit where you can't remember what it is for or when you started it.

People voted Leave because they were told there was no downside.
We would save money, the EU would no longer to tell us what to do, we would have more say on who could come here and the EU would be desperate to strike a deal with us that would be better than what we had before.

If the final deal offers none of these things - I suspect some people might change their mind.

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, John Lambies Doos said:

52% of people voted to leave the EU. Leaving means leaving Single Market, Customs Union and EU institutions and Laws. I hate the idea we are leaving but anything less than total removal of above is an affront to democracy. To say people didn't know what they were voting for is wrong. You are either in it or not. At that stage you can negotiate access but it will be at a heavy price. Britain has fucked up here and will have to live with it.

I will be less subtle than others.

Youre talking pish.

[John Lambies Doos]

I will be less subtle than others.
Youre talking pish.

In what way?

[Granny Danger]

11 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

 

In what way?

 

 

3 hours ago, John Lambies Doos said:

1.  anything less than total removal of above is an affront to democracy.

2.  To say people didn't know what they were voting for is wrong.

3.  Britain has fucked up here and will have to live with it.

1.  Not if folk are given an opportunity to change their mind and take it.

2.  Many did, many didn't.  Of those who voted Leave many would still vote Leave now that it is clearer, a sizeable proportion would not.

3.  If someone is standing on a bridge and has decided they want to jump off they can still change their mind right up until the point where their feet leave the structure.  

There is still time to change our mind on Brexit based on mature reflection.  Using my analogy you're one of the folk who would prefer to shout "jump" then say afterwards "well we couldn't stop them".