mrman2011 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 I have read a lot of moaning about the fact under 20 teams are involved and boycotts etc What would be you ideal format, was the one previously ideal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing gravie Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 The previous format, although not ideal, gave all clubs outside the Pamperedship a chance of silver wear. Would YOU jump out of a perfectly serviceable aeroplane? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattmc Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 As above. I loved the old format. Was fortunate enough to see Stranraer lift the trophy. Gives hope to all the smaller clubs. These under 20's and Lowland/Highland teams give it a pre season feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 13 minutes ago, laughing gravie said: The previous format, although not ideal, gave all clubs outside the Pamperedship a chance of silver wear. Would YOU jump out of a perfectly serviceable aeroplane? They have no less chance of winning it now. There are reasons why people may not like it. That isnt one of them. The 20s sides have no chance of getting near winning it (only the best of them got through two ties and they squeezed past Cowden). The Irish and Welsh are unlikely to be better than our full time championship sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan Vojáček Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 I liked it as it was (not actually true, we had the worst record in it) and there was actually a decent amount of prestige to winning it. I wouldn't be against adding all the LL and HL clubs and leaving things there. At the moment it feels like the Stirlingshire Cup. Youth/reserve teams battling it out in front of about 100 people for a trophy that nobody will remember. That's before we even get started on the farce that is the N.Irish and Welsh clubs stumbling in at the latest round possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee_62 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 19 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said: They have no less chance of winning it now. There are reasons why people may not like it. That isnt one of them. The 20s sides have no chance of getting near winning it (only the best of them got through two ties and they squeezed past Cowden). The Irish and Welsh are unlikely to be better than our full time championship sides. I'm no statistician but I think just by the dint of having an extra round or two, some of the teams in league 1 and 2 will have less of a chance of winning it regradless of opposition. You guys in the lofty heights of the Championship have the same number of rounds as previously and the benefit of seeding which will favour the bigger teams (ie no chance of a repeat Rangers v Hibs in Round 1 as per last season). So, in summary - better chance for the championship teams and less chance for the league 1 and 2 teams. (I think) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nofixedability Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 League sides below Premiership + two teams from the League 2 play-off that weren't successful. No regionalisation, no seeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEADOWXI Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 30 teams from SPFL Champ, 1st & 2nd 18 teams from Highland League 16 teams from Lowland League 64 teams. All-in from 1st round, no seeding, no regionalisation, every game 90 mins then penalties if required. 64 - 32 - 16 - 8 - Semis - Final 1st 4 rounds mid weeks, Semis and Final international breaks, done before winter. No U20s and no Non-Scottish teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CM. Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 6 minutes ago, MEADOWXI said: 30 teams from SPFL Champ, 1st & 2nd 18 teams from Highland League 16 teams from Lowland League 64 teams. All-in from 1st round, no seeding, no regionalisation, every game 90 mins then penalties if required. 64 - 32 - 16 - 8 - Semis - Final 1st 4 rounds mid weeks, Semis and Final international breaks, done before winter. No U20s and no Non-Scottish teams. I would still say regionalise the first couple of rounds especially if you say make them midweek. Or vice versa make them the weekend with no regionalisation. Other than that I would go with this aswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEADOWXI Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 5 minutes ago, C. Muir said: I would still say regionalise the first couple of rounds especially if you say make them midweek. Or vice versa make them the weekend with no regionalisation. Other than that I would go with this aswell. Seems reasonable, was just trying to emphasis momentum of the tournament. Get it played and won, these break in the Challenge and League Cup that dragged the final rounds till after the New Year were pointless and destroyed the momentum of winning a round and looking forward to the next game. One thing I hate is seeding. Just takes a whole element of a fair knock out competition and totally removes it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David W Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 It's a shame the weather etc isn't great over the New Year and that there's always a backlog of league fixtures as the perfect time for this competition would be from January onwards, similar to the FA Trophy. Would mean the League 1/2 teams are still in a cup competition. I'd actually prefer to play more league games at this time of year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 1 hour ago, dee_62 said: I'm no statistician but I think just by the dint of having an extra round or two, some of the teams in league 1 and 2 will have less of a chance of winning it regradless of opposition. You guys in the lofty heights of the Championship have the same number of rounds as previously and the benefit of seeding which will favour the bigger teams (ie no chance of a repeat Rangers v Hibs in Round 1 as per last season). So, in summary - better chance for the championship teams and less chance for the league 1 and 2 teams. (I think) Playing an extra round or two against lesser opposition shouldn't really affect chances of winning it much but fair enough I wasn't really thinking about the "seeding" they've introduced. Do we know how it's being "seeded" today yet? So far it's only really been used to keep 20's from meeting one another. Anyway, I was responding to a post that implied there was a serious handicap to lower league sides chance by the new format. Realistically League 2 sides are unlikely to reach the final but they were before too (I know Annan have been to a couple of semi finals, has one ever reached the final?). A single extra round for League 1 sides against most likely a League 2 or 20's side isn't really going to affect their chances of winning much. I take the point re seeding. I think on balance I'd prefer it wasn't. I think regionalisation of the early rounds midweek makes sense though of course there's no getting away from the fact if Highland sides are in it then someone will be travelling significantly. I'm not convinced there's a "better" chance for Championship teams. To get further maybe, to win it though you'll still have to beat the best of what's there and are more likely to have to do it yourself than hope a Rangers and Hibs type meeting takes out one of the big guns early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 There will likely be more Championship clubs in the last 16 than after a single, unseeded free for all in late July - combine that with the guest entrants and the Old Firm youth teams and that's what the TV companies want to see in the latter stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee_62 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Playing an extra round or two against lesser opposition shouldn't really affect chances of winning it much but fair enough I wasn't really thinking about the "seeding" they've introduced. Do we know how it's being "seeded" today yet? So far it's only really been used to keep 20's from meeting one another. Anyway, I was responding to a post that implied there was a serious handicap to lower league sides chance by the new format. Realistically League 2 sides are unlikely to reach the final but they were before too (I know Annan have been to a couple of semi finals, has one ever reached the final?). A single extra round for League 1 sides against most likely a League 2 or 20's side isn't really going to affect their chances of winning much. I take the point re seeding. I think on balance I'd prefer it wasn't. I think regionalisation of the early rounds midweek makes sense though of course there's no getting away from the fact if Highland sides are in it then someone will be travelling significantly. I'm not convinced there's a "better" chance for Championship teams. To get further maybe, to win it though you'll still have to beat the best of what's there and are more likely to have to do it yourself than hope a Rangers and Hibs type meeting takes out one of the big guns early. There will likely be more Championship clubs in the last 16 than after a single, unseeded free for all in late July - combine that with the guest entrants and the Old Firm youth teams and that's what the TV companies want to see in the latter stages. Yep, it seems more and more that what the SPFL want is the bigger clubs to be getting further in the cup competitions. Result will be like the recent BetFred cup draw - little to get fired up about. Would much prefer to see a tough attractive tie in any round of a cup competition. Agree that regionalisation is required for the midweek rounds of this competition. Still think that any draw that keeps the Championship teams apart gives them a better chance of progressing and therefore winning but won't argue the toss on it and you're right, League 2 clubs are unlikely to get anywhere close to winning under any format. Still...feels like the opportunity to progress with a random draw has disappeared and more obstacles have been put in the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 It's what a TV company wants in order to offer any credible money to televise the competition. The SPFL is going along with it because of the commercial benefits. The bottom line here is that if people want an unseeded, free-for-all, Scottish senior clubs only format, they had it until this year. And it was barely televised, barely sponsored, subsidised horseshit. The nefarious influence of TV money over Scotland's third cup competition is not an issue to be getting upset about IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick1867 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 2 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said: Realistically League 2 sides are unlikely to reach the final but they were before too (I know Annan have been to a couple of semi finals, has one ever reached the final?). We reached the semis last season and in 2002/03. It was like we were back in the late 19th century Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee_62 Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 It's what a TV company wants in order to offer any credible money to televise the competition. The SPFL is going along with it because of the commercial benefits. The bottom line here is that if people want an unseeded, free-for-all, Scottish senior clubs only format, they had it until this year. And it was barely televised, barely sponsored, subsidised horseshit. The nefarious influence of TV money over Scotland's third cup competition is not an issue to be getting upset about IMHO. But shouldn't we get upset about material changes to the only cup competition that the diddies can realistically expect to win? The extra TV money and extra teams appear to pretty much cancel each other out as far as the league teams' income goes. And so far, Premier Sports are content to show Celtic U20s. So, the early rounds when the diddiest of clubs are still in are still barely televised - even worse, with the regionalised approach, it's unlikely that the tv cameras will ever travel north of the Clyde/ central belt as long as Celtic and Rangers U20s are in the South pot. (Or, like this year, a Fife team fell into the South pot) I'm really not sure what the lower leagues of Scottish football are getting out of it? Premiership clubs are obviously getting an income stream that they didn't have previously. Don't know if you're you suggesting that the tournament has gone from subsidised horseshit to commercially viable horseshit or just commercially viable? [emoji2] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 1 hour ago, Mick1867 said: We reached the semis last season and in 2002/03. It was like we were back in the late 19th century I forgot you were in it last season. Sorry! I knew about 02/03 (we won it that year) but had it in my head you were a Division 2 side at the time (League One). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 34 minutes ago, dee_62 said: The extra TV money and extra teams appear to pretty much cancel each other out as far as the league teams' income goes. I'm really not sure what the lower leagues of Scottish football are getting out of it? Premiership clubs are obviously getting an income stream that they didn't have previously. Don't know if you're you suggesting that the tournament has gone from subsidised horseshit to commercially viable horseshit or just commercially viable? The extra tv money and extra teams cancel each other out in terms of early exit clubs. The prize money is much better at the later rounds than it was before though. I'm not sure if you are seriously trying to suggest that motivation for 20's inclusion is the prospect of Premiership teams getting £5k or so prize money out of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyrshireTon Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 All of the teams try to qualify to play in a semi final against Sevco U20s or Celtic U20s. The final can be at Hampden, televised live (but not on BBC Alba). Sincerely Neil Doncaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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