New BBC Documentary Series - Scottish Fitba is Pish

[ICTChris]

Did there not used to be a rule similar to the one that Charlie Christie is proposing?

Our youth set up consists almost entirely of the sons of former Caley legends so we are sorted.

[jessmagic]

There was a great mutual respect between Celtic and Rangers players on the park, as we all understood the pressure of playing for the "old firm".

[ICTChris]

There was a great mutual respect between Celtic and Rangers players on the park, as we all understood the pressure of playing for the "old firm".

 

[topcat(The most tip top)]

1 hour ago, vikingTON said:

 

Any ESL would be based on already existing 'franchise' clubs - not artificial constructs. There is no credible business plan to allow a single Team Glasgow' into what would be an elite European competition.

 

The "If they had the money" bit was a pretty big proviso

[jessmagic]

Following on from the points made further up the thread -

Starting with the Scottish Cup Final last season, i though this was easily the best game I had seen all season (well maybe apart from beating Celtic at Pittodrie). Without wanting to get into comparisons with England again, this game was night and day from their cup final. This upcoming programme should be shouting from the roof tops that our showpiece occasion was such an exciting match. However i think this is highly unlikely.

Reading through the crowd attendance figures it is clear that when compared with recent history they are actually in good shape. For my own club in particular I was aware that even during season 82/83 our crowds were not that large. I think the main problem here is the ludicrous stadium criteria (10000 capacity required !!! - as suggested above this should have been replaced with an entry criteria of all under 12s being let in for free) that was introduced in 1998.This was a major error and allows ignorant west coast hacks to produce frequent polemics about all the empty seats. I don't know if you can trust some one on Twitter with the moniker "Agent" but he often produces some figures which would appear to suggest that the Scottish game is well supported in comparison to the rest of Europe.

Last season Aberdeen were beaten by Kairat Almaty - this was viewed as being some great shock or upset that brought "shame on the Scottish game" however they were paying wages well above what we could even dream of. This is also true for a lot of the smaller countries Scotland has trouble against - times have changed and we have failed to adjust and develop. 

As for the premier league in England - dull, dull, dull over hyped nonsense. If only the SPFL marketed what was good about the game instead of constantly talking it down and wishing for another helicopter Sunday.... 

[williemillersmoustache]

Good post, great username, will go far IMO.

[RandomGuy.]

Did there not used to be a rule similar to the one that Charlie Christie is proposing?

Our youth set up consists almost entirely of the sons of former Caley legends so we are sorted.

Yeah it was 3 U21s. And it led to the most talented youths rotting on the bench with the odd appearance instead of being loaned out and getting actual game time.

Rewarding youth players for being young is a bizarre idealism.

[RedRob72]

I know what you mean.

You get these people who claim they hate ISIS yet seem to spend a lot of time talking about them! It doesn't make sense.

Aye that's a great analogy, you must have been up all night scribing that!![emoji849]

[Monkey Tennis]

5 hours ago, vikingTON said:

Then you're advocating a policy in the best interests of the Scottish international team - not a policy in the best interests of Scottish football. Which and always has been dominated by the club game.

The straightforward economic facts are that Scottish clubs hold a major financial and marketing advantage over literally dozens of domestic leagues across Europe: if clubs exploited that strength then Scotland's domestic league would be of a substantially higher quality and club results in European competition would be markedly better. Cheaper and higher quality labour is the solution.

You're pretty much right.

I do put the interests of the International team ahead of arguments regarding the "quality" of our domestic game.  I'm genuinely more interested in it being more egalitarian, as opposed to it being of a higher standard.  I'm not too fussed about how our clubs do in Europe.  I actively want the OF to fail and I recognise that the others are not really invited to the party.

I don't want us to exploit any economic advantage in that way.

[Monkey Tennis]

42 minutes ago, RedRob72 said:

Aye that's a great analogy, you must have been up all night scribing that!!

The point about taking a great interest in something not necessarily denoting an affection for it, still stands though.

It was a typically senseless observation.

[Dee Man]

3 hours ago, RedRob72 said:

Aye that's a great analogy, you must have been up all night scribing that!!

It perfectly highlights just how ridiculous your post was.

[vikingTON]

Last season Aberdeen were beaten by Kairat Almaty - this was viewed as being some great shock or upset that brought "shame on the Scottish game" however they were paying wages well above what we could even dream of. This is also true for a lot of the smaller countries Scotland has trouble against - times have changed and we have failed to adjust and develop. 

Well it's not actually true for the vast majority of clubs in the "smaller countries", or even a majority of their European entrants. It wasn't true when Saint Johnstone lost to Alashkert, Hearts to Birkikara, Celtic to Molde and at least a dozen other clubs with a fraction of their resources in the past few years. There are indeed a handful of clubs operating with external funding from oil tycoons etc., mostly in the 'stans, but they are the exception to the rule. Scottish clubs in comparison to the "smaller countries" are richer: they don't tend to make that advantage count though.

[cmontheloknow]

22 hours ago, TheScarf said:

He needn't worry.  ICT produce great young players all the time.  We've always got lads starting for the Scotland under 21's.

Our youth setup is one of the best in the country actually.

Maybe I've missed a whoosh but these were the players aged 16-19 on your books at the start of the 2010-11 season and where they were at the end of last season:

 

David Chambers (Lossiemouth)

Calum Dingwall (Formartine Utd)

Robert Donaldson (last seen at SpeyValley)

Neil Erskine (Ellon Utd)

Andrew Greig (Brora Rangers)

Murray Kinnaird (Cove Rangers)

Martin Laing (Inverurie Locos)

Andrew MacAskill (Turriff Utd)

Adam Macleod (Strathspey Thistle)

Chris Moir (Nairn County)

Liam Polworth (Inverness CT)

Nick Ross (Dundee)

Graeme Shinnie (Aberdeen)

Tom Smith (retired)

Chad Stewart (retired)

Jack Sutherland (last seen at University of Stirling FC)

Kyle Whyte (last seen at Clachnacuddin)

Sean Porter (retired)

Edit: Ryan Christie is not listed because afaik he did not sign Pro until the following season.

[jessmagic]

2 hours ago, vikingTON said:

 

Well it's not actually true for the vast majority of clubs in the "smaller countries", or even a majority of their European entrants. It wasn't true when Saint Johnstone lost to Alashkert, Hearts to Birkikara, Celtic to Molde and at least a dozen other clubs with a fraction of their resources in the past few years. There are indeed a handful of clubs operating with external funding from oil tycoons etc., mostly in the 'stans, but they are the exception to the rule. Scottish clubs in comparison to the "smaller countries" are richer: they don't tend to make that advantage count though.

 

That's a fair point.

Overall we do not compete well in Europe against clubs with smaller resources. However I just wanted to highlight that countries we may have previous viewed as lacking a footballing tradition or being minnows etc. etc. Have now stepped up their game due to funding levels we could only dream of. This is even true for Iceland.

How to solve it ...I don't know. As alluded to previously I think when developing footballers I think their education should be as equally important as any football training. In Germany this has been the case for a number of years and it seems to be working for them. Is it an issue that when Scottish footballers play European teams they lack the game intelligence to adjust to different styles or have they just had a "Maccay Ds" as a pre-match meal, again I don't know but it is something worth considering.

Even looking at my own team although the results against Maribor this season were ultimately disappointing, I think over the past three seasons we have learned to cope better with European teams. I guess all our teams can do in the short term is learn as much as possible from playing in Europe, qualify for a few consecutive seasons and then put what they have have learned into practice.

Anyway never mind all this, I have just heard a "sensational" exclusive from Chick Young that Eoin Jess will be signing for Rangers in the next 24 hours......

 

[HibeeJibee]

I think the problem is that a lot of people don't distinguish between the foreigners... Results such as Hearts losing to Birkirkara, St Johnstone losing to Alashkert, Dunfermline losing to Hafnafjordur, Motherwell losing to St Jarnan, Dundee Utd losing to MyPa47, Hibs losing to Kaunas, and various OF calamities are shockers as are the gubbings like Aberdeen v Siga Olomouc and Hibs v Malmo. However many other defeats are legitimate losses to stronger opponents. Kazakhstan is an example - rolling in money and crowds similar to many in our Premiership, but people seem to rate them as minnows. Its as if everything "below the top 20" or "east of Berlin" blends into one.

People also forget the 'beyond expectations' results of recent years like Aberdeen beating Gronigen and Rijecka, or St Johnstone beating Rosenborg and Lucerne.

Of course some may - unjustifiably - feel Belgium, Croatia, Norway and Switzerland are beneath us.

[BucksburnDandy]

6 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

Maybe I've missed a whoosh but these were the players aged 16-19 on your books at the start of the 2010-11 season and where they were at the end of last season:

 

David Chambers (Lossiemouth)

Calum Dingwall (Formartine Utd)

Robert Donaldson (last seen at SpeyValley)

Neil Erskine (Ellon Utd)

Andrew Greig (Brora Rangers)

Murray Kinnaird (Cove Rangers)

Martin Laing (Inverurie Locos)

Andrew MacAskill (Turriff Utd)

Adam Macleod (Strathspey Thistle)

Chris Moir (Nairn County)

Liam Polworth (Inverness CT)

Nick Ross (Dundee)

Graeme Shinnie (Aberdeen)

Tom Smith (retired)

Chad Stewart (retired)

Jack Sutherland (last seen at University of Stirling FC)

Kyle Whyte (last seen at Clachnacuddin)

Sean Porter (retired)

Edit: Ryan Christie is not listed because afaik he did not sign Pro until the following season.

 

Slight update: Andy MacAskill is currently over in Oz for a year, playing football near Brisbane. Good lad, for a Sevconian.

[EdTheDuck]

45 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

Of course some may - unjustifiably - feel Belgium, Croatia, Norway and Switzerland are beneath us.

This, I think. The same people who see a defeat by anyone other than English, German, Italian or Spanish teams as a catastrophe would shrug and "so they should" (even though Groningen are Dutch, not Belgian :P)

Wha's Like Us

[vikingTON]

The Scottish league's UEFA ranking tends to flatten out the inevitable swings of public attention towards shock results though, and the league's performance on the basis of Scottish football's wealth is piss-poor. Maribor narrowly beating Aberdeen wasn't a surprise given the relatively greater European experience of the opponents, but Maribor ultimately play in front of a lower Premiership-sized crowd (4,000 or so) in a country that is by no means dirt poor but still has a lower standard of living than Scotland; their ticket prices will be far lower than any top flight side in Scotland. No-one is forking out huge sums for Slovenian TV rights, nor are there oil barons subsidising clubs. So when it is clear that the likes of Maribor, Spartak Trnava or fellow, middling clubs in European terms possess some good players who can compete with or are better than the options available to Scottish clubs, why aren't they being targeted using the greater financial muscle of Scottish club sides to improve their performances?

[Antiochas III]

We can't look at Maribor or Slovenian or the likes because of the mentality in Scotland.  Just mention the word B teams (Maribor's plays in the 3.liga) and some Scottish football fans go into a meltdown.   Not to mention competitive youth football from an early age.

 

Forgetting that having such a thing like B teams allows players to play competitive football from (usually) the age of 18 to 23 in a system that is much closer to how the senior side would play.  Which is much better for the senior side and player than some loan to a team in what would be in the same league as any B team.  

 

 

[HibeeJibee]

Plenty successful countries don't have 'B' teams, though.

Plenty countries that do aren't successful.