The political divide

[pandarilla]

It's a fairly clutching at straws point, if I'm honest.

We've discussed this before. I think you at times are guilty of jumping in with both feet when some issues are more complex. I think this strategy pisses off people on the other side who you need to be persuading (in the case of Scottish independence anyway).

Now the poster in question is probably not someone who will be persuaded, but in this case I think his specific point was right.

We could go through numerous issues and pour over polls where evidence suggests Scottish and English people have quite a similar political view.

[Cream Cheese]

Ah.... the whole "we need to persuade other people to vote independence" argument.

No we don't. It will be very much the other way around this time. Every argument on keeping the UK together has completely fallen apart within the space of 2 years. If reality can't convince people, then nothing we say will change their minds. If reality can convince people, then we won't need to say anything.

[Kyle]

Unionist Principles

 

PUL community

 

Rangers handbook referred to by Red white and blue Robert once again I see.

[Fide]

1 hour ago, pandarilla said:

 

 

 

 

We've discussed this before. I think you at times are guilty of jumping in with both feet when some issues are more complex. I think this strategy pisses off people on the other side who you need to be persuading (in the case of Scottish independence anyway).

Now the poster in question is probably not someone who will be persuaded, but in this case I think his specific point was right.

We could go through numerous issues and pour over polls where evidence suggests Scottish and English people have quite a similar political view.

 

 

I take your point.  I'm all for gently persuading those who have an open mind for it.

[RedRob72]

So are you suggesting that all people in England who voted for Brexit are in fact English Nationalists? If that's the case, then there are more English Nationalists than there are British Unionists. Therefore the union is finished.

Unionism holds its strength across all four nations of the U.K. is there concern at the growth of English nationalism? yes.

[RedRob72]

Unionist Principles

 
PUL community
Rangers handbook referred to by Red white and blue Robert once again I see.

Absolutely nothing to do with my football club. I'm sure that there are a number of fellow Rangers fans who supported the Yes vote in the Scottish Ref and Leave in the Euro Ref. No problem.

[Cream Cheese]

1 minute ago, RedRob72 said:

Unionism holds its strength across all four nations of the U.K. there is concern at the growth of English nationalism, yes.

 

And the "union" on a whole voted for nationalism. Which highlights the sheer hypocrisy of British Unionism. Nationalism is bad if it's Scottish, but it's perfectly ok if it's British and motivated by values that belong in yesterdays century.

[RedRob72]

And the "union" on a whole voted for nationalism. Which highlights the sheer hypocrisy of British Unionism. Nationalism is bad if it's Scottish, but it's perfectly ok if it's British and motivated by values that belong in yesterdays century.

Scottish Nationalists have their views (as indeed do English Nationalists), I've got mine. None of us has a monopoly on whose right (or wrong for that matter). There are still Millions of British Unionists who would have preferred to remain in the EU.

[Gordon EF]

40 minutes ago, RedRob72 said:

Absolutely nothing to do with my football club. I'm sure that there are a number of fellow Rangers fans who supported the Yes vote in the Scottish Ref and Leave in the Euro Ref. No problem.

I'm sure a lot of Rangers fans voted Leave too.

[pandarilla]

Every argument on keeping the UK together has completely fallen apart within the space of 2 years.

I want Scottish independence but that's simply untrue.

The whole 'economic uncertainty' is arguably greater - and that was the main problem last time.

The eu thing is not clear cut yet. That all depends on whether Scotland could be kept in under the same terms. It also depends on the timing of the next referendum, and whether we leave before that.

The currency problem hasn't been resolved either.



The idea that people do not have to be persuaded is quite breathtaking.

[Cream Cheese]

People didn't need to be persuaded to vote for Brexit. It was won on empty slogans that played on peoples contempt of foreigners and the establishment. The problem the YES campaign had in Scotland wasn't a case of questions not being answered, but rather making people think too hard. If we're going to win a 2nd independence referendum, then it needs to be won on simplicity, not by over complicating matters, which only serves to put people off.

[NotThePars]

52 minutes ago, Cream Cheese said:

People didn't need to be persuaded to vote for Brexit. It was won on empty slogans that played on peoples contempt of foreigners and the establishment. The problem the YES campaign had in Scotland wasn't a case of questions not being answered, but rather making people think too hard. If we're going to win a 2nd independence referendum, then it needs to be won on simplicity, not by over complicating matters, which only serves to put people off.

The difference is that Euroscepticism was arguably more prevalent among the population than support for Scottish independence plus both Scottish independence and membership of the EU have both suffered from extremely negative press for years. The Leave camp didn't make any real arguments because the debate was already largely framed on the EU being an oppressive and foreign institution.

[Fide]

4 hours ago, RedRob72 said:

Absolutely nothing to do with my football club. I'm sure that there are a number of fellow Rangers fans who supported the Yes vote in the Scottish Ref and Leave in the Euro Ref. No problem.

Aye, keep telling yourself that vast swathes of Rangers fans aren't utter scum.

The rest of us know the truth.

 

 

[WhiteRoseKillie]

Posted in error

[Antlion]

3 hours ago, NotThePars said:

The difference is that Euroscepticism was arguably more prevalent among the population than support for Scottish independence plus both Scottish independence and membership of the EU have both suffered from extremely negative press for years. The Leave camp didn't make any real arguments because the debate was already largely framed on the EU being an oppressive and foreign institution.

If the mainstream media had treated the British Union in the same way much of it treated the European Union, independence would have been won in 2014 by a staggering majority. It's not just that the media have been drip-dripping stories hostile to the big bad EU for years, but that it reported on the EU as what it is: a union that can be joined or left. The UK, however, has rarely been treated in the same manner - it is reported on as a country (which naturally people like RedRob lap up), and all talk of Scottish independence must therefore be framed as "smashing it up", with those who dare to support leaving this union being "separatists".

Just look at that ridiculous "vow". It was all about Scotland being treated to crumbs from the "real" country's table. Even the most pro-EU media outlet would never have been able to sell the message that if the UK voted to remain, it would get to be one of the world's tallest dwarves.

[NotThePars]

22 minutes ago, Antlion said:

If the mainstream media had treated the British Union in the same way much of it treated the European Union, independence would have been won in 2014 by a staggering majority. It's not just that the media have been drip-dripping stories hostile to the big bad EU for years, but that it reported on the EU as what it is: a union that can be joined or left. The UK, however, has rarely been treated in the same manner - it is reported on as a country (which naturally people like RedRob lap up), and all talk of Scottish independence must therefore be framed as "smashing it up", with those who dare to support leaving this union being "separatists".

Just look at that ridiculous "vow". It was all about Scotland being treated to crumbs from the "real" country's table. Even the most pro-EU media outlet would never have been able to sell the message that if the UK voted to remain, it would get to be one of the world's tallest dwarves.

 

A point in their defence: the UK does have quite a long history of unity to draw on. I don't believe that's enough to justify its continuation but there you go. Nobody alive or even long dead now has a memory of an independent Scotland whereas many alive remember joining the EU.

[McSpreader]

7 hours ago, NotThePars said:

 

A point in their defence: the UK does have quite a long history of unity to draw on. I don't believe that's enough to justify its continuation but there you go. Nobody alive or even long dead now has a memory of an independent Scotland whereas many alive remember joining the EU.

Well said. The UK has a long and Successful history to draw on. Created by Scottish Royalty as it was in Scotland's beat interests to be conjoined with England for both economic and security reasons. That is still true today and to anyone who says otherwise I say 'Take yer blinkers off, Neddy'.

Independence for it's own sake or for anti-English prejudice or, as in the case of the SNP, to secure power for one's own agenda is exactly that.........but don't kid us it's what is best for Scotland.

[Wee Willie]

1 hour ago, McSpreader said:

Well said. The UK has a long and Successful history to draw on. Created by Scottish Royalty as it was in Scotland's beat interests to be conjoined with England for both economic and security reasons. That is still true today and to anyone who says otherwise I say 'Take yer blinkers off, Neddy'.

Independence for it's own sake or for anti-English prejudice or, as in the case of the SNP, to secure power for one's own agenda is exactly that.........but don't kid us it's what is best for Scotland.

You're still spouting shite.

but don't kid us it's what is best for Scotland.
What is best for Scotland?
Let English politicians make all the decisions regarding Scotland's place in the world.
Decide for us that bombing another country is somehow progress.
Keeping WMD are somehow good for us although through our elected representatives the Scottish people overwhelmingly rejected that.

In your opinion what is best for Scotland?

 

[Fide]

1 hour ago, McSpreader said:

Well said. The UK has a long and Successful history to draw on. Created by Scottish Royalty as it was in Scotland's beat interests to be conjoined with England for both economic and security reasons. That is still true today and to anyone who says otherwise I say 'Take yer blinkers off, Neddy'.

Independence for it's own sake or for anti-English prejudice or, as in the case of the SNP, to secure power for one's own agenda is exactly that.........but don't kid us it's what is best for Scotland.

You'd be hard pressed to find one single supporter of Scottish independence who wants it for "it's own sake", "anti-English prejudice" or just for an agenda.

It is demonstrably the the best thing for our country going forward and that only becomes more apparent with every passing day.

I'd pretty much say you're beyond help if you truly believe that it's in Scotland's best interests to remain in the UK for economic and security reasons.  Oh and while I'm here, Scotland being "conjoined with England" does not constitute the makeup of the UK.

[RedRob72]

Aye, keep telling yourself that vast swathes of Rangers fans aren't utter scum.

The rest of us know the truth.

 

 

Yep, we're the ones filled with hate and intolerance eh!? Jeez[emoji849]