Robert James Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Given the ongoing situation whereby Banks O'Dee can't progress within the 'pyramid', it is important that the SFA forms a North of Scotland Senior League. I would suggest that the pyramid below the Highland League, should be established on the following basis : (1) the best/most ambitious North Region Junior (10) clubs be invited by the SFA (after full consultation) to form a new feeder NoS league for teams in the east & south of the Highland Region (2) the "expanded" North Caledonian League be given equal feeder league status, by incorporating its existing 8 clubs in the north & west of the Highlands plus Inverness City (ex NCL member club), and AN Other west/north club (3) the champions of each of the above leagues to participate in an end of season Playoff to determine the Northern Champions, who (if the club is SFA licensed) would be promoted to the Highland League, replacing the bottom HFL club. (It should NOT be compulsory that these clubs obtain an SFA licence, meaning that only teams that wish to progress to the Highland League, could do so). The above would complete the Pyramid in northern Scotland, whilst recognising that for geographical & financial reasons, this vast area needs to have two feeder leagues of equal status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 There is already a North Region Super League with promotion to and demotion from. All that is needed is incorporating the Caledonian League into a 3 way play off for promotion to it, and for the HL to agree to promotion and relegation between it and the Super League. Any side getting promoted to the HL will need floodlights though, so long as the season has to finish so early to satisfy the SPFL play off rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionel hutz Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 On 21/07/2016 at 10:27, Robert James said: Given the ongoing situation whereby Banks O'Dee can't progress within the 'pyramid', it is important that the SFA forms a North of Scotland Senior League. I would suggest that the pyramid below the Highland League, should be established on the following basis : (1) the best/most ambitious North Region Junior (10) clubs be invited by the SFA (after full consultation) to form a new feeder NoS league for teams in the east & south of the Highland Region (2) the "expanded" North Caledonian League be given equal feeder league status, by incorporating its existing 8 clubs in the north & west of the Highlands plus Inverness City (ex NCL member club), and AN Other west/north club (3) the champions of each of the above leagues to participate in an end of season Playoff to determine the Northern Champions, who (if the club is SFA licensed) would be promoted to the Highland League, replacing the bottom HFL club. (It should NOT be compulsory that these clubs obtain an SFA licence, meaning that only teams that wish to progress to the Highland League, could do so). The above would complete the Pyramid in northern Scotland, whilst recognising that for geographical & financial reasons, this vast area needs to have two feeder leagues of equal status. This has been discussed a lot on FitbaNorth, there's only a handful of clubs below tier 5, that have the requirements to play at a higher level. Halkirk, Banks O'Dee and Aberdeen Uni are the only clubs with the HL requirements. The most likely scenario is that the Highland league reduces it size to 16 and the North Super League expands to 16 with promotion and relegation, whilst the North Division one East and West act as tier 7 with the North Caley League acting as a North Division One North as it were. That Would leave: 16 (Highland League) 16 (Superleague) 8 (North Caley) - 10 (west) - 11 (East) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 Think the most likely scenario is the HL split that gets discussed on FitbaNorth even if a narrow majority of member clubs is still bitterly opposed. Then even non-licensed clubs can be allowed into the second tier to make up the numbers on a 12-12 or something like that. People on messageboards post a lot about the juniors being a factor in terms of promotion and relegation to and from the fifth tier, but as far as I can see there is zero evidence of it happening any time soon. It would take strong leadership from SFA officeholders to change that and it's difficult to see what their motivation would be in doing so at the moment, if there is no strong groundswell amongst their members for further radical change. Self-interest tends to be what drives people on this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert James Posted July 25, 2016 Author Share Posted July 25, 2016 Unlike the East & West Regions, northern Junior clubs interest in the Highland League is fluid. The elevation from the Juniors to the HFL of Cove Rgrs, Inverurie, Turriff, Formartine, and Strathspey (plus the unsuccessful promotion attempts of Banks O' Dee) supports this view. Inverness City's longer term aim (prior to ground problems) was to do likewise, and former SFA Member club, Aberdeen University would probably do the same if the HFL reduced the number of league matches required each season ? Would the likes of Culter and Stonehaven turn down the opportunity to join the seniors, if it meant promotion to the HFL within the pyramid? Perhaps their supporters could comment on this ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted July 26, 2016 Share Posted July 26, 2016 Junior football in the NE is a wee bit different from the central belt in being more like top amateur in the way it is viewed in that it is more about participation with there being very few people who would regard themselves as diehard supporters of any these clubs rather than Aberdeen supporters that go and watch a local game when the Dons are playing away. Yes there might be a couple of clubs that would be interested in joining an HL2 especially if there is no licence involved, but the big attraction of the North Region juniors versus the HL for a lot of the people involved in and around Aberdeen is that they don't have to travel to Fort William, Brora and Wick, so I would be very surprised if there was general enthusiasm for the north superleague to be tier six covering all of the country north of a line drawn from Dundee to Oban when it is usually effectively an Aberdeen and district league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 In comparison with the rest of the country, it should be fairly easy to resolve things up north... Connect the North Junior Superleague with HL and accommodate the North Caledonian alongside the Junior district leagues (whether formally - by it becoming Junior - or not is largely immaterial). Even if few clubs hit the criteria for HL anytime soon it provides a route for the likes of Banks o'Dee and potentially Golspie, Halkirk etc. It could even provide a solution to HL's "too many clubs" issue - could rebalance from 18 to 16 by increasing North Junior Superleague from 14 to 16, then provides a "landing spot" for additional relegations in future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert James Posted July 28, 2016 Author Share Posted July 28, 2016 3 hours ago, HibeeJibee said: In comparison with the rest of the country, it should be fairly easy to resolve things up north... Connect the North Junior Superleague with HL and accommodate the North Caledonian alongside the Junior district leagues (whether formally - by it becoming Junior - or not is largely immaterial). Even if few clubs hit the criteria for HL anytime soon it provides a route for the likes of Banks o'Dee and potentially Golspie, Halkirk etc. It could even provide a solution to HL's "too many clubs" issue - could rebalance from 18 to 16 by increasing North Junior Superleague from 14 to 16, then provides a "landing spot" for additional relegations in future. Theoretically this structure would be workable, but I can't see the Junior FA endorsing a 'pyramid' link between existing junior clubs and the Highland League, as it presents a threat to the status quo. Also, the main problem is that geographical distances mean that the NCL needs to slot in directly below the HFL, and alongside the North Junior Super League, not below it. An annual play-off between these 2 feeder leagues would determine which eligible club is promoted, which theoretically favours the Junior champions, so they shouldn't feel threatened by the NCL. It also means that the likes of Fort William, Brora, and Wick would benefit from a more local "landing spot", if relegated in the future - surely something clubs in the north east would also prefer ?. Furthermore, not all NCL clubs are 'small' given the fan bases at Thurso and Kirkwall (Orkney FC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEADOWXI Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Below the North Superleague the juniors already split East/West, The East is Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire teams but the West although having west teams from Nairn, Forres and Spey Valley also includes Fochabers, Whitehill and Newmachar (Newmachar is about 10/15miles from Aberdeen). The NCL could strengthen the west hopefully and some of the clearly east teams playing in the west may have their travel reduced too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionel hutz Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 4 minutes ago, MEADOWXI said: Below the North Superleague the juniors already split East/West, The East is Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire teams but the West although having west teams from Nairn, Forres and Spey Valley also includes Fochabers, Whitehill and Newmachar (Newmachar is about 10/15miles from Aberdeen). The NCL could strengthen the west hopefully and some of the clearly east teams playing in the west may have their travel reduced too. According to wiki, Montrose Roselea will play in the North West league next season. Kind of ironic, they left the East Region citing the amount of travelling they had to do and this this season will require them to go back and forth to Nairn and Inverness several times this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEADOWXI Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Just noticed that too, very bizarre. East and West the tables aren't up but they look like this, McBookie.com First Division East Cruden Bay v Aberdeen University East End v Longside Fraserburgh United v Buchanhaven Hearts Lewis United v Ellon United Stoneywood Parkvale v Glentanar McBookie.com First Division West Forres Thistle v Fochabers Islavale v Burghead Thistle Montrose Roselea v Whitehills Nairn St Ninian v Newmachar United New Elgin v Spey Valley United Furthest for Montrose will be Spey Valley or Nairn. With the inclusion of NCL at that level could split the current 1st West and add these teams to either NCL or 1st East, And sensibly get Nemachar, Montrose in East, Or a three way split, East, Central and West below Superleague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinabear Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 I think if any further reconstruction is going to happen then it will be from the North Juniors/Highland league who start it, then hopefully the rest will follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Montrose is significantly further west than Aberdeen so the rules as written placed them in the west. Attempts to revise the rules to avoid that from happening failed to gain a majority at the NRSJFA AGM. If a minor fix like that isn't doable good luck on getting something much more radical like a pyramid through. It always looked to me like Banks O'Dee needing a progression pathway would be the issue that would break the logjam, but there seems to be no pressure being applied by the SFA for the HL to sort that out. The status quo could easily drift on for a long time unless the 19 team HL scenario happens through relegation of a club like Montrose or Elgin after a playoff loss to the LL champion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEADOWXI Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Terribly anomalies, Newmachar Utd must be the furthest East of the West teams, See attached, they are the larger yellow flag between, Aberdeen, Oldmeldrum and Newmachar, http://batchgeo.com/map/66e6dbcfb81e859ea8d1bdc19149afa7 Doc41.docx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinabear Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 3 hours ago, MEADOWXI said: Terribly anomalies, Newmachar Utd must be the furthest East of the West teams, See attached, they are the larger yellow flag between, Aberdeen, Oldmeldrum and Newmachar, http://batchgeo.com/map/66e6dbcfb81e859ea8d1bdc19149afa7 Doc41.docx That's actually a really helpful document. Shows how difficult regionalisation can be in some areas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 18 hours ago, Robert James said: It also means that the likes of ... Brora, and Wick would benefit from a more local "landing spot", if relegated in the future - surely something clubs in the north east would also prefer. There is more chance of me winning the lottery than Wick or Brora getting to the bottom of the table anytime soon. Getting the pyramid going is really simple, just don't try to cover every possible but hugely unlikely eventuality until it happens, then deal with it. And f**k the North East teams, they have most of the money and conspired to stop the very worthy Banks o Dee getting a promotion last time because they thought they might be a threat with their fancy facilities, and let in Formartine who played (postponed) in a bog for the first few years and the utterly useless Strathspey Thistle instead, who I'm sure would be much happier in the Super League if they could survive the pace. Now we have the Cove tramps begging to borrow pitches for yet another year while spending a fortune on players without even having planning permission in place for a pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 On the Newmachar / Montrose thing: apparently it's because the North Juniors brought in a rule saying the districts would be assigned by a line of longitude - not set by an AGM vote or Board meeting or whatever - but they hadn't realised the consequences i.e. that the coast of Scotland does not adhere to a perfect due North. Consequently, clubs like Newmachar and Montrose have found themselves in the West District, alongside clubs from the Highlands and Moray, because they are actually slightly further west than the other Aberdeenshire and Angus teams. Having moved over to reduce travelling the average away trip for Montrose has actually increased, and the total distance is hardly any different to the East Region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 It really should be north west and south east rather than straight east and west. Lesson probably learned for next year but obviously not great just now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrshire-SFC Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 I'm sure I recall one of the montrose roselea committee members saying that the travel in the west of the north region juniors is still less in the grand scheme than what they were doing before. I may be wrong but it was mentioned by that individual in the montrose roselea thread in the juniors forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 In total it's less (i.e. when you add-up all mileage of all the games) as they'd have had 15 away games in the East Juniors Premier Division - 16 clubs - compared to something like 11 away games in the North Juniors West District. However someone on FitbaNorth observed that, depending on the weather, the districts sometimes play 3 times (which would total 16 or 17 away games) to fill-out the season. There's also a divisional cup. If they've saved mileage it won't be by much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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