UEFA Nations League

[charger29]

24 minutes ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

It seems a bizarre meritocracy in that being at the top or the bottom are rewarded, while being in the middle is punished.

I'd say there's positives and negatives to where you finish depending upon which League you're in and if it's the NL just before the euro quali. League A & B runners up won't be too disappointed about where they've finished in a quali year. C & D runners up might though. Non-quali years it might not be a bad thing to get relegated (apart from fifa ranking), I think??

I think we can all agree this this exact format won't last long. Something slightly changed will stay though, IMO.

I'll give it until after the 2020 finals group stages, when 3rd placed teams will be raging that one team got Lithuania in their group and comfortably beat them to get through to the knockout stages as a best 3rd placed team by default.

The whole euro's tournament is just off at the moment. A team winning the tournament after only winning 1/7 games in 90 mins shouldn't happen.

[HibeeJibee]

On the FIFA rankings thing - presumably these matches will only register as friendlies, not competitive games? East Asia Cup, African regional tournaments, Caribbean Cup etc. haven't been.

Obviously this is confederation-wide but it'd surely be unfair if European countries have 3 tournaments registering points as competitive games.

[forameus]

1 hour ago, HibeeJibee said:

On the FIFA rankings thing - presumably these matches will only register as friendlies, not competitive games? East Asia Cup, African regional tournaments, Caribbean Cup etc. haven't been.

Obviously this is confederation-wide but it'd surely be unfair if European countries have 3 tournaments registering points as competitive games.

I'd be surprised, like you say, if they treat these as competitive in a FIFA-rankings sense.  They'll still count towards rankings, but imagine they'll be given a lower rating, probably just treated as friendlies for points scoring.  

[charger29]

4 minutes ago, forameus said:

I'd be surprised, like you say, if they treat these as competitive in a FIFA-rankings sense.  They'll still count towards rankings, but imagine they'll be given a lower rating, probably just treated as friendlies for points scoring.  

Especially with the layouts of the leagues. Teams in league A could end up playing 4+ more competitive games against other very highly ranked sides.

[Enigma]

It seems a bizarre meritocracy in that being at the top or the bottom are rewarded, while being in the middle is punished.

Yeah it would be a bit like having Scotland entrants in Europe as Celtic, Hibs, Livi and Arbroath.

[HibeeJibee]

I'm not a fan of 3-team groups either. They should have gone with 4 groups of 4 throughout - plus a single group of 7 in Division D (playing home-or-away - top 4 promoted, or top 2 promoted and 4ths in Division C play-off for relegation).

Also I'm right in saying that if they have to do a runners-up ranking or similar in Division C, say for a spare playoff place - they'll have to ditch results v 4th in sections A-C, leaving results v just 2 others?

Also in future what'll happen with hosts?

[Bully Wee Villa]

 

Yeah it would be a bit like having Scotland entrants in Europe as Celtic, Hibs, Livi and Arbroath.

 

Warming to the idea.

 

Any of them would most likely beat the sixth-best team from Luxembourg, to be fair.

 

[King Kebab]

[HibeeJibee]

Imagine that it applied domestically in Scotland. Existing leagues were replaced by a Scottish version of the Nations League, and 4 places in League Cup knockouts went to playoffs spun off it:
 

Scottish Premiership

Group A        Group B         Group C         Group D

Celtic*        Aberdeen*       Rangers*        St Johnstone*

Hearts         Partick         Ross County     Kilmarnock

Motherwell     Dundee          Hamilton        Inverness

 

Scottish Championship

Group A        Group B         Group C         Group D

Hibs           Falkirk         Dundee Utd      Morton

Dunfermline    QotS            St Mirren       Dumbarton

Raith          Ayr             Livingston      Alloa

 

Scottish League One

Group A        Group B         Group C         Group D

Airdrie        Brechin         East Fife       Queen’s Park

Stranraer      Albion Rov      Peterhead       Stenhousemuir

Arbroath       Forfar          Annan           Montrose

Elgin          Stirling Alb    Edinburgh City

 

Scottish League Two

Group A        Group B         Group C         Group D

Berwick        Clyde           Cowdenbeath     Buckie

East Kilb      Cove            East Stir       Brora

Spartans       Formartine      Stirling Uni    Fraserburgh

Dalbeattie     Forres          Cumbernauld     Turriff

 

Green = promoted

Red = relegated

 

 

*Scottish Premiership title tournament:

 

Celtic, Aberdeen, Rangers, St Johnstone


Had qualified for League Cup via League Cup groupstage

Aberdeen, Ayr, Celtic, Dundee, Dundee Utd, Dunfermline, Falkirk, Hamilton, Hibs, Kilmarnock, Livingston, Motherwell, Partick, Rangers, Ross County, St Johnstone

 

 

League Cup qualification playoffs:

 

Scottish Premiership – Hearts v Inverness

 

Scottish Championship – Raith v QotS, St Mirren v Morton >>> Final

 

Scottish League One – Airdrie v Brechin, East Fife v Queen’s Park >>> Final

 

Scottish League Two – Berwick v Clyde, Cowdenbeath v Buckie >>> Final

[Gordopolis]

Imagine that it applied domestically in Scotland. Existing leagues were replaced by a Scottish version of the Nations League, and 4 places in League Cup knockouts went to playoffs spun off it:
 

Scottish Premiership

Group A        Group B         Group C         Group D

Celtic*        Aberdeen*       Rangers*        St Johnstone*

Hearts         Partick         Ross County     Kilmarnock

Motherwell     Dundee          Hamilton        Inverness

 

Scottish Championship

Group A        Group B         Group C         Group D

Hibs           Falkirk         Dundee Utd      Morton

Dunfermline    QotS            St Mirren       Dumbarton

Raith          Ayr             Livingston      Alloa

 

Scottish League One

Group A        Group B         Group C         Group D

Airdrie        Brechin         East Fife       Queen’s Park

Stranraer      Albion Rov      Peterhead       Stenhousemuir

Arbroath       Forfar          Annan           Montrose

Elgin          Stirling Alb    Edinburgh City

 

Scottish League Two

Group A        Group B         Group C         Group D

Berwick        Clyde           Cowdenbeath     Buckie

East Kilb      Cove            East Stir       Brora

Spartans       Formartine      Stirling Uni    Fraserburgh

Dalbeattie     Forres          Cumbernauld     Turriff

 

Green = promoted

Red = relegated

 

 

*Scottish Premiership title tournament:

 

Celtic, Aberdeen, Rangers, St Johnstone


Had qualified for League Cup via League Cup groupstage

Aberdeen, Ayr, Celtic, Dundee, Dundee Utd, Dunfermline, Falkirk, Hamilton, Hibs, Kilmarnock, Livingston, Motherwell, Partick, Rangers, Ross County, St Johnstone

 

 

League Cup qualification playoffs:

 

Scottish Premiership – Hearts v Inverness

 

Scottish Championship – Raith v QotS, St Mirren v Morton >>> Final

 

Scottish League One – Airdrie v Brechin, East Fife v Queen’s Park >>> Final

 

Scottish League Two – Berwick v Clyde, Cowdenbeath v Buckie >>> Final

Simples

[HibeeJibee]

UEFA is meeting this week to settle the regulations. Already confirmed the divisions will be made-up on UEFA coefficient as they stand after the October internationals, and will be published on Wednesday 11th October. According to an analysis by the 'Football Rankings' website Scotland are 95.39% certain to be in Division C:

http://www.football-rankings.info/2017/09/uefa-nations-league-seeding-simulations.html


One positive to all this is that in Division C we've a 3/4 chance of ending-up in a 4-team group, and subsequently a 1/2 chance of ending-up in a 6-team group in Euro 2020 qualifying, which in effect means playing 2 games every international window. This would IMO be an improvement on shirking so many friendly dates as we make a habit of. Only March 2020 (if we didn't end-up in playoffs) would be "free".

[Pie Of The Month]

From a travelling perspective I'd rather avoid potentially 8 competitive away games in the space of just over a year but from a competitive football point of view it should be much better.

From what I read yesterday the draw for this will be the end of January (24th or around then I think). 

[gannonball]

My head hurts.

[Nowhereman]

On 9/17/2017 at 21:38, HibeeJibee said:

Imagine that it applied domestically in Scotland. Existing leagues were replaced by a Scottish version of the Nations League, and 4 places in League Cup knockouts went to playoffs spun off it:
 

Scottish Premiership

Group A        Group B         Group C         Group D

Celtic*        Aberdeen*       Rangers*        St Johnstone*

Hearts         Partick         Ross County     Kilmarnock

Motherwell     Dundee          Hamilton        Inverness

 

Scottish Championship

Group A        Group B         Group C         Group D

Hibs           Falkirk         Dundee Utd      Morton

Dunfermline    QotS            St Mirren       Dumbarton

Raith          Ayr             Livingston      Alloa

 

Scottish League One

Group A        Group B         Group C         Group D

Airdrie        Brechin         East Fife       Queen’s Park

Stranraer      Albion Rov      Peterhead       Stenhousemuir

Arbroath       Forfar          Annan           Montrose

Elgin          Stirling Alb    Edinburgh City

 

Scottish League Two

Group A        Group B         Group C         Group D

Berwick        Clyde           Cowdenbeath     Buckie

East Kilb      Cove            East Stir       Brora

Spartans       Formartine      Stirling Uni    Fraserburgh

Dalbeattie     Forres          Cumbernauld     Turriff

 

Green = promoted

Red = relegated

 

 

*Scottish Premiership title tournament:

 

Celtic, Aberdeen, Rangers, St Johnstone


Had qualified for League Cup via League Cup groupstage

Aberdeen, Ayr, Celtic, Dundee, Dundee Utd, Dunfermline, Falkirk, Hamilton, Hibs, Kilmarnock, Livingston, Motherwell, Partick, Rangers, Ross County, St Johnstone

 

 

League Cup qualification playoffs:

 

Scottish Premiership – Hearts v Inverness

 

Scottish Championship – Raith v QotS, St Mirren v Morton >>> Final

 

Scottish League One – Airdrie v Brechin, East Fife v Queen’s Park >>> Final

 

Scottish League Two – Berwick v Clyde, Cowdenbeath v Buckie >>> Final

So Raith, who could have lost heavily in all four group games, get in to the play offs because Dunfermline and Hibs qualified through their groupstage. But Dumbarton, who might have lost out to Morton only on goal difference, don't get in to the play offs. In other words it's not necessarily down to what your team does but down to what the other teams do in a completely separate tournament.

( I'm not highlighting Dumbarton because they are my team but because it shows up the weirdness of this system) 

[HibeeJibee]

That's correct. Try to finish as high as you can in NL then if you don't finish top 2 in Euro 2020 qualifying yourself, you hope those who finished above you in NL do (and possibly those in other groups, too, if slots  move sideways/cascade).

Hence the worries about "lying down" v certain opponents in Euro 2020 qualifying.

[Bully Wee Villa]

It's almost like this is really badly thought through and the officials in charge just voted it through so they could carry on drinking.

[HibeeJibee]

Aside from 3-team/4-team group thing I mentioned, the Nations League idea works pretty well.

"Tagging on" Euro 2020 playoffs is where it gets contrived and inequitable.

[Bully Wee Villa]

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

[craigkillie]

On 12/09/2017 at 20:08, HibeeJibee said:

I read it as meaning if everyone had qualified the slot dropped to the next division. I guess the answer is "no-one seems to know for sure". If they do uplift division winners from below it's certainly "unfair", tbh.

They've released a new article on their website confiming the rules.  As part of this, they've included a video which shows how the Euro 2020 play-off spots are distributed.

It suggests that the process is carried out in the following order:

1. Remove all the teams which have qualified through the normal qualifiers.
2. For each league, the next 4 highest finishing teams are included in the play-offs.  It does not seem to matter which mini section teams are in here - the video shows a runner-up from Group C2 qualifying for the play-offs ahead of the runner-up from Group C3, even though the winners of Group C3 had already qualified.
3. If a league does not have 4 teams to fill these slots, the remaining teams from the league below are bumped up.

If I have interpreted this correctly, then if we used your league cup example, the "Championship" qualification play-offs would in fact include Morton, Queen of the South, St Mirren and Dumbarton.  The two vacancies in the "Premiership" play-offs would then be filled by Raith and Alloa.

[HibeeJibee]

1 hour ago, craigkillie said:

They've released a new article on their website confiming the rules.  As part of this, they've included a video which shows how the Euro 2020 play-off spots are distributed.

It suggests that the process is carried out in the following order:

1. Remove all the teams which have qualified through the normal qualifiers.
2. For each league, the next 4 highest finishing teams are included in the play-offs.  It does not seem to matter which mini section teams are in here - the video shows a runner-up from Group C2 qualifying for the play-offs ahead of the runner-up from Group C3, even though the winners of Group C3 had already qualified.
3. If a league does not have 4 teams to fill these slots, the remaining teams from the league below are bumped up.

If I have interpreted this correctly, then if we used your league cup example, the "Championship" qualification play-offs would in fact include Morton, Queen of the South, St Mirren and Dumbarton.  The two vacancies in the "Premiership" play-offs would then be filled by Raith and Alloa.

Interesting, thanks.

Regarding bold - does that come down to ranking between groups, i.e. on points, GD & GF in the 4 (or maybe 6) games?

If so I'm sure that's a subtle adjustment they've done. I'm almost positive that until now it was being stated that the highest ranked non-qualifier in each section went in.