The BetFred Cup Attendance thread

[realmadrid]

We must have taken 500 to 600 to Elgin on Saturday, well up on what we take to ICT, Ross County or Kilmarnock for a far longer trip.
If it had been a friendly would 50 have gone?
I certainly would not have gone to an Edinburgh City v Livingston friendly but went as it was a competitive game (on paper if one sided when there)

[dee_62]

14 hours ago, vikingTON said:

The majority of clubs getting papped out already would have been papped out by a seeded club in Round 1 of the old format. Splitting four gates before exiting will quite clearly yield higher gate revenues for almost every club in the competition than a First Round exit under the old format. Meanwhile clubs who should have made it through to Rounds 2 or 3 before but aren't competitive in their group have nothing to blame but their own poor performance or bad luck of the draw, The majority of clubs will unquestionably earn more than they would have earned before, so the format won't be going anywhere and for a good reason: even if we leave to one side the TV deal. Fairly straightforward stuff.

 

although on the flip side (according to our Chairman)....part time, lower league clubs are now paying wages to a full staff (and potentially bonuses) much earlier than they ever had to before.  Not sure the split of the 4 gates will be enough to cover...

[David W]

14 hours ago, invergowrie arab said:

I can't believe ( I can) thicko managers like Barry Ferguson on the radio last night saying they were treating it like pre season.

He's not the thicko here.

Or are you suggesting part time players should be given a couple of weeks less break? As that's the only way these games wouldn't fall in a preseason schedule.

[vikingTON]

If any club can't cover their costs by playing four football games in the space of two weeks then they're not a credible business at all. The serious costs for any club mount up due to inactivity through postponements etc., not by playing matches.

And it's not "much earlier than before". The first set of fixtures took place a single week earlier than the opening match for most clubs in the group stages (Challenge Cup Round 1) in recent seasons. Which would have been this Saturday had both competitions not been changed.

[vikingTON]

He's not the thicko here.

Or are you suggesting part time players should be given a couple of weeks less break? As that's the only way these games wouldn't fall in a preseason schedule.

Three of the rounds would have fallen within the regular season under the old setup. So Ferguson was tasked with starting his preparation a single week earlier, or organising it with greater intensity. And he clearly failed, going by the puffing state half his players were in by the 50th minute on Tuesday evening.

[1320Lichtie]

I can't believe ( I can) thicko managers like Barry Ferguson on the radio last night saying they were treating it like pre season.

I also can't believe thickos like Dick Campbell not knowing whether or not arbroath had got a point from the Unitd  game.

Where/when did he say that? If he did say it it'll be sarcasm.

And well when 1 team out of 5 qualifies and the 4 best runners up qualify it can turn into that for some teams. Obviously if we'd beaten you lot and then won last night we wouldn't be treating it as a fitness thing but we haven't and realistically weren't going to win they 2 games or the Inverness one that's coming up so that's what it's turned into now for a lot of teams. Same goes for Clyde now I'd imagine.

Nothing wrong with that. If we were in Dundees group for example might be a different story.

[Mr Gandosaur]

He's not the thicko here.

Or are you suggesting part time players should be given a couple of weeks less break? As that's the only way these games wouldn't fall in a preseason schedule.

But this isn't "pre" season. The season has now started.

[PauloPerth]

15 hours ago, vikingTON said:

The majority of clubs getting papped out already would have been papped out by a seeded club in Round 1 of the old format. Splitting four gates before exiting will quite clearly yield higher gate revenues for almost every club in the competition than a First Round exit under the old format. Meanwhile clubs who should have made it through to Rounds 2 or 3 before but aren't competitive in their group have nothing to blame but their own poor performance or bad luck of the draw, The majority of clubs will unquestionably earn more than they would have earned before, so the format won't be going anywhere and for a good reason: even if we leave to one side the TV deal. Fairly straightforward stuff.

Managers, journalists and fans gurning about a lack of opportunity for a team to progress, or deciding to treat a decent cash-cow as a set of pre-season warm-ups before a thrilling crack at midtable mediocrity should be taking note of East Fife, who are excellently placed to qualify for the last 16 with all the potential match-ups that entails. The complacency/rustiness of some bigger sides has, this year at least, made it easier for smaller clubs to progress than before - rather than drawing a Championship club at the end of July, then a Premiership outfit in mid-August when the league season is well underway. 

 

Agree.

it provides competitive matches as a prelude to the league season, the crowds are far higher than if each match was a friendly.  Pre-season friendlies are terrible to watch, low key sub-fests that are only of value to the respective coaching staffs.  I haven't paid to watch one in a long time, but happily went to see Saints play a competitive match up at Elgin, or will travel thru to Brechin next week.

if clubs are out after the first couple of fixtures, then simply use the remaining games as preparation for the season as they would be doing with traditional friendlies anyway, it's no big negative surely.  They get four competitive matches in a tournament where previously many would only get one, as you say.

the other benefit for sponsors is we are providing competitive football live on tv at a time of year when no one else is.  The only rivals are those over-hyped shite super friendlies in various far flung places that nobody really gives a f**k about.

[1320Lichtie]

Agree.

it provides competitive matches as a prelude to the league season, the crowds are far higher than if each match was a friendly.  Pre-season friendlies are terrible to watch, low key sub-fests that are only of value to the respective coaching staffs.  I haven't paid to watch one in a long time, but happily went to see Saints play a competitive match up at Elgin, or will travel thru to Brechin next week.

if clubs are out after the first couple of fixtures, then simply use the remaining games as preparation for the season as they would be doing with traditional friendlies anyway, it's no big negative surely.  They get four competitive matches in a tournament where previously many would only get one, as you say.

the other benefit for sponsors is we are providing competitive football live on tv at a time of year when no one else is.  The only rivals are those over-hyped shite super friendlies in various far flung places that nobody really gives a f**k about.

Agree with this also but surely people can understand my point earlier. Now we're out we will use them for fitness and as a pre season game.

The Rangers getting all they games on is a joke by the way.

[David W]

1 hour ago, vikingTON said:

 

Three of the rounds would have fallen within the regular season under the old setup. So Ferguson was tasked with starting his preparation a single week earlier, or organising it with greater intensity. And he clearly failed, going by the puffing state half his players were in by the 50th minute on Tuesday evening.

 

You say our fitness wasn't at its peak, yet BF has said he's using the games as part of the preseason preparation. What's the issue?

You're also assuming (incorrectly) that he took a different approach last year. His aim was the first league game then also.

Unless you overwork the players, potentially fatiguing them which is suicidal with a small squad, there's not a chance part timers will at their best after 3 weeks of training. Therefore you include these games as part of the build up. 

[vikingTON]

I seem to recall East Fife being a part-time side, without boasting a huge squad to choose from. And yet they took five points from the equivalent fixtures as yourselves - your outfit got zero.

It's almost as if your thick manager trades in bullshit excuses for his own failure.

[eckthearab]

Agree with this also but surely people can understand my point earlier. Now we're out we will use them for fitness and as a pre season game.

The Rangers getting all they games on is a joke by the way.

Yes it is a joke but wholly expected. Can imagine BT being well p****d off that they can't show them all. The sooner the bigot brothers die or move to england or european league and allow the rest of us to get on with it the better. Really hope it happens in my lifetime. The demographic of viewers for these games will be wide and varied but only as in rangers fans not living in Glasgow. Can't imagine many utd, dundee, Elgin, or other teams supporters giving a monkeys bout rangers games. Would rather have a game of bingo. I'd far rather watch st Johnstone in one of their games or Dunfermline v arbroath, would make an effort to see these games. It's not as if rangers (or Cellic if it was them) need the extra cash (well maybe rangers do lol) the live game brings when there's 30 odd thousand at the game. Spread the money out amongst the other teams, I doubt the viewing audience figures would be hugely different as most OF fans can get streams of their games anyway.

[mikedafc]

Is the revamped format bring in crowds?

There was a decent crowd at Arbroath last night.

Bold denotes Live TV.


Friday 15th July

1. Airdrieonians 0-1  Partick Thistle - 1,632
2. Cove Rangers 1-2 Raith Rovers - 362 (Match Played at Forfar)
3. Arbroath 1-1 Dundee United (3-5pens) - 3,124

Saturday 16th July

1. Albion Rovers 0-0 Greenock Morton (3-4 pens) - 431
2. Annan Athletic 1-2 Stranraer - 418
3. Ayr United 2-1 Hamilton Accies - 994
4. Clyde 1-2 Kilmarnock - 1,303
5. Cowdenbeath 1-2 Inverness CT - 487
6. East Fife 1-1 Dundee (4-2 pens) - 1,407 
7. Elgin City 1-3 St Johnstone - 1,046
8. Forfar Athletic 2-2 Dumbarton (6-5 pens) - 426
9. Livingston 2-3 St Mirren - ???
10. Montrose 0-1 Ross County - 557
11. Motherwell 0-2 Rangers - 6,951
12. Queens' Park 0-2 Queen of the South - 410 (Played at Airdrie due to Beyonce Ultras)
13. Stirling Albion 1-0 Falkirk - 1,315

 

Some really poor crowds there, only seven crowds over 1000. Hopefully they'll improve over the course of the competition. Really poor at Cowdenbeath, Ayr and Albion Rovers. Decent turnouts at Arbroath, Stirling Albion and East Fife.

 

A lot of people still away on holiday , would expect crowds to rise as we get closer to end of July

[cmontheloknow]

Various non-leagues have used a League Cup iin groups to start the season in the time that the national leagues rested the idea. In the North and West, the Juniors still have this. From my own experience it is a dud format as the games are non-events unless you are competitive - even worse in West Region, the groups are fixed so it's the same boriing fixtures every year. In some ways I prefer pre-season friendlies to it as at least there is some variety to the opposition.

If the Betfred Cup remains, as time passes, I can see more managers using it as pre-season. It only really matters if you win your first game or two, if not then it is fitness work. Even some of the biggest sides are using Europe in this way - Aberdeen I think played one friendly before the Esch game.

[HibeeJibee]

With the exception of the Arbroath-Dundee Utd crowd on the Friday night - and perhaps the Clyde-Kilmarnock and Elgin-St Johnstone games which got above 1,000 from teams who do not usually carry huge travelling supports - I though the opening weekend crowds were surprisingly low. With the new competition format, good weather, a weekend slot, plus Euro 2016 having ended the week before, you might have expected a decent crowd bounce. Various games had low-price admission, too. By chance there wasn't much else on TV either.

Some of the crowds this midweek have been very low. As others have noted the odds are they'll continue to fall: as some clubs are effectively out, and many will go out this weekend.

However, to analyse their significance depends on context - and should really wait until July 31st. So far they're below league/knockout cups and regular season - but they're perhaps above friendlies?

[Best Team in Angus]

I believe that the payments to clubs this year are up a considerable amount from previous sponsors so maybe clubs should treat Betfred with a bit of respect and treat the competition  seriously or maybe just refuse to take their money

[PauloPerth]

13 hours ago, eckthearab said:

 

Yes it is a joke but wholly expected. Can imagine BT being well p****d off that they can't show them all. The sooner the bigot brothers die or move to england or european league and allow the rest of us to get on with it the better. Really hope it happens in my lifetime. The demographic of viewers for these games will be wide and varied but only as in rangers fans not living in Glasgow. Can't imagine many utd, dundee, Elgin, or other teams supporters giving a monkeys bout rangers games. Would rather have a game of bingo. I'd far rather watch st Johnstone in one of their games or Dunfermline v arbroath, would make an effort to see these games. It's not as if rangers (or Cellic if it was them) need the extra cash (well maybe rangers do lol) the live game brings when there's 30 odd thousand at the game. Spread the money out amongst the other teams, I doubt the viewing audience figures would be hugely different as most OF fans can get streams of their games anyway.

 

Agree with you, and I'm the same in that I'd far rather watch Ross County/ Dunfermline etc than the old firm, but I'm pretty sure the viewing figures for matches involving either half of the OF will be far higher than matches without either of them, sadly.

theres a lot of folk in Scotland who say they're Rangers/Celtic fans, don't go to games but will happily sit and watch them on tv.

[Radford]

8 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

With the exception of the Arbroath-Dundee Utd crowd on the Friday night - and perhaps the Clyde-Kilmarnock and Elgin-St Johnstone games which got above 1,000 from teams who do not usually carry huge travelling supports - I though the opening weekend crowds were surprisingly low.

Perhaps? The crowd of 1,046 at Elgin was up 40% on their average last season!

[1320Lichtie]

Well they had something like 1200 against us when it wasn't even a meaningful game at the very end of the season and there might've been more of them coming out to see them play a premiership team...?

[Jaggy Snake]

I don’t think it’s fair to judge the attendances until at least the second season of a competition. A lot of people I spoke to didn’t even realise how early the games started, which I think partly came down to a slight lack of promotion of the competition and the fact they seemed to be making it up as they went along, in regards to the draw and how fixtures would be decided.

Although you could argue the Euros should get people in the mood to watch football, summers without a major football competition usually leave people more keen for it to return, as they realise how much they miss it in the weeks without any football.

The clubs will also learn from this year’s group stages, for example, I doubt we’ll see pricing such as £16 for Alloa’s game on Tuesday again.

There are other more fundamental issues with the set up. It’s difficult to promote a cup as being a top level competition when your top teams (those who qualified for Europe) don’t enter until a later stage.