Next UK Labour Leader - post Brexit

[jmothecat]

Yes, because that worked really well in stopping the NF in the 70s, the BNP at the turn of the century & UKIP today, didn't it?

In any case, we've just found ourselves Brexitted because the elite refused to take seriously how pissed off the lower orders were about immigration. If the Labour part of our ruling masters want those beastly proles to support their "betters" ever again, they'd better start listening to what they want, not what Jeremy Corbyn & his Guardian reading cappuchino sipping smug hipsters think is "good for them", the same hubris that finished them (albeit long overdue) in Scotland.

They've pissed off the white, black & brown working class in this country to the extent they effectively loaned their vote to the Farageists for a referendum many felt mattered not a flying f**k to their lives whatever the result was - they were screwed before it & would be screwed again after it.

If they don't heed the warning, Labour could find themselves losing loads of seats in their Northern English & Welsh heartlands directly to UKIP or to the Tories or Lib Dems on a split vote the same way they were so spectacularly exterminated in Scotland in an event they were arrogantly confident would never, ever happen because apart from the occasional by-election hiccup certain areas would "always vote Labour".

People in England (& to an extent Wales) have now seen things don't always have to be "that's just the way it is"... they've enjoyed giving the nation's political class their first bloody nose in decades & realised why the Scots & Northern Irish found it so satisfying come the next major elections they'll want more. Labour had better get that into their thick heads if they ever want to take office ever again.

We found ourselves brexited because Cameron was stupid enough to have a referendum on the issue. The beauty of our democracy is we can largely ignore widely held views that many of the populace might have but politicians know are not good ideas. Brexit should have been one of them, but Cameron took a risk and lost.

Immigration is another. Immigration is a good thing and people's anger won't be abated by pro-immigration MPs pretending to make it an issue and legitimising the view. Better off avoiding the subject and trying to tackle the route causes of anti-immigration feeling. When the issue comes up, talk about the positives immigration brings, but don't invite the topic because it is perceived as one of our weaknesses and we shouldn't waste time alienating voters by bleating on about one of our unpopular positions.

[Gordon EF]

4 hours ago, Loondave1 said:

Sense breaks out Gordon . We'll be having walks together in the Autumn sunshine soon...

Ach, in some ways it's a shame Scottish politics has become so partisan as huge numbers of people on Yes and No sides will strongly agree on a whole range of issues. But too many on either side would oppose a cure for cancer if it came from the wrong party.

I don't blame either side for the partisanship appearing or growing, it's just the way it has to be when there's an issue which elicits such strong responses and generally cuts across all ideologies and opinions on other issues.

I don't imagine it's going anywhere until after independence (whenever that might be) though.

[WaffenThinMint]

1 hour ago, dorlomin said:

Peoples discomfort at immigration stems from lack of wage growth and decline in real incomes. You need to change how the economy works so wealth is more evenly distributed and the cost of living is manageable. 

But to do that you have to be in power.

To be in power you need to win voters back in marginal constituencies, the shin bone is connected to the knee bone .... etc etc. 

I dont want Labour to be in power for the sake of being in power, I want them in power because I think they are better for the majority of people than the Tories. I think that Browns handling of the economic crisis was night and day compared to the Osborne and Cameron. There is a very long list of things the last Labour government did wrong, but obsessing about those so that the Tories can rule for decades is savagely damaging to working people. 

Corbyn can promise to spend £500 billion but if the swing voters take fright at those numbers then he can promise the Moon on a stick. No power no means of delivering. 

You vote for the government that can deliver the best outcomes for the people of this (or these) country. 

You campaign to change peoples minds so that they are willing to vote for more left or progressive policies. You can do both at the same time. Its not hard and the people of this country benefit from both. 

1 hour ago, jmothecat said:

We found ourselves brexited because Cameron was stupid enough to have a referendum on the issue. The beauty of our democracy is we can largely ignore widely held views that many of the populace might have but politicians know are not good ideas. Brexit should have been one of them, but Cameron took a risk and lost.

Immigration is another. Immigration is a good thing and people's anger won't be abated by pro-immigration MPs pretending to make it an issue and legitimising the view. Better off avoiding the subject and trying to tackle the route causes of anti-immigration feeling. When the issue comes up, talk about the positives immigration brings, but don't invite the topic because it is perceived as one of our weaknesses and we shouldn't waste time alienating voters by bleating on about one of our unpopular positions.
 

 

 

The statement "Immigration is a good thing" is a dangerous view to hold.

Ask the people in England circa 1066 or the Irish during the Plantations & they'd give you one very forthright no, as would the true Taiwanese at the immigration of the refugees from the Chinese civil war who rewarded their hospitality by dispossessing them of their land. On the other hand, the mass (by the standards of the time) immigrations from Flanders to the British Isles trying to escape the ravages of the Black Death in Europe (they were soon disappointed!) was a godsend to a country whose agricultural & mercantile base almost completely collapsed from the population loss it had suffered; and the Dutch who came over immediately after 1688 & All That with their expertise in the magic arts of the Bourse came with impeccable timing to a country still stunned by the fate of the adventurer Captain Phips & the Algier Rose - or rather of those pioneer British speculators who funded their voyage & were to make a staggering 10 000% return on their investment - & British finance was soon never to be the same again.

Immigration is neither a good thing or a bad thing - it is an action in a given moment in time & like all such is prisoner to the circumstances it finds itself in & the impact it may have for good or ill. To hold it as a sacred totem or as the devil incarnate are equal follies.

What can be said to be true however is that immigration where people are regarded as nothing more as beasts of burden to be exploited for the increased profit of a few to the detriment of society as a whole is an evil no civilised society should ever tolerate. The immigrant should neither undercut nor be expected to take an undercut for the same work done by the indigenous population, & Jeremy Corbyn is correct in saying wage & conditions harmonisation across Europe would help put a stop to this (although granted putting it into practice will require the skills of a Streseman).

[Alan Stubbs]

If someone asks a politician what they think of immigration, they're not expecting them to ponder over examples from a thousand years ago or in Taiwan. They're asking about immigration in Britain today and on that issue, Labour are in a really tough spot.

Their "traditional heartlands" don't seem to be seeing eye to eye on it and it's hard to see how they're going to consolidate the London/Scotland type vote with the bumkin Midlands/Northern/Wales one. I'm not sure how they can satisfy the entirety of their own historic supporter base, never mind win the swing vote.

[mjw]

Ask the people in England circa 1066 or the Irish during the Plantations & they'd give you one very forthright no.

Time travel thread for this pish.

[ayrmad]

Corbyn just doesn't inspire when he talks, where's the oomph that attracts large numbers?

[Bully Wee Villa]

You don't need that much "oomph". John Major won an election.

[Peppino Impastato]

Jmo expressing utterly disgusting views as ever, with breathtaking arrogance thrown in.  What a vile little creature he and all blairites are.

[mjw]

Jmo expressing utterly disgusting views as ever, with breathtaking arrogance thrown in.  What a vile little creature he and all blairites are.

Nope.
You don't even read his posts do you?
You just see the name and steam in with your angry name calling pish.

[Peppino Impastato]

Did you read It?   On this page, the beauty of our democracy,  utterly disgusting.   Theres a reason they're called elected representatives,  on top of disgusting it's simple ignorance about what democracy actually is.

[WaffenThinMint]

5 hours ago, Bully Di Villa said:

You don't need that much "oomph". John Major won an election.

More accurate to say Neil Kinnock lost it - "Alright! Alright! Alright!

5 hours ago, Peppino Impastato said:

Jmo expressing utterly disgusting views as ever, with breathtaking arrogance thrown in.  What a vile little creature he and all blairites are.

If you are referring to the following passage:

10 hours ago, jmothecat said:

The beauty of our democracy is we can largely ignore widely held views that many of the populace might have but politicians know are not good ideas.

TBH I decided to let that one pass as it provided the answer to what Labourites have to say about this:

11 hours ago, WaffenThinMint said:

If the Labour part of our ruling masters want those beastly proles to support their "betters" ever again, they'd better start listening to what they want, not what Jeremy Corbyn & his Guardian reading cappuchino sipping smug hipsters think is "good for them", the same hubris that finished them (albeit long overdue) in Scotland.

Answer: nope, we in the Labour Party will continue to tell you what's good for you, we are your betters & you are merely the thick proles. What a wonderful world where large numbers of the population did not wish us to invade Iraq, or prioritise a new nuclear weapon system over the NHS & schools, & are told "tough! We know best."

The trouble with what the politicians "know are not good ideas" is more often than not it means "is not of profit to themselves". The trouble with politicians "we know best" is it more often than not means best for themselves.

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

If Labour think swapping one flavour of dictatorial know-it-alls for ones singing the Red flag is going to save them, they're in for as rude an awakening as they received in Scotland.

[Bully Wee Villa]

Watched bits of the speech and it seemed pretty decent. He's never going to be Cicero but it seemed like a good attempt to unify the party and set out a statement of intent.

Wondering what JMO, BerwickMad and the other residents Corbynaphobes thought? Has it won you over at all?

[BerwickMad]

The bits I heard were fairly decent. Not much on Brexit, but I didn't hear it all. Had it on between visits yesterday and it was straight to the football after work so hopefully get a listen properly tonight. The reports seem fairly positive.

[Loondave1]

Watched bits of the speech and it seemed pretty decent. He's never going to be Cicero but it seemed like a good attempt to unify the party and set out a statement of intent.

Wondering what JMO, BerwickMad and the other residents Corbynaphobes thought? Has it won you over at all?

I wavered months ago but now more power to his elbow.It might end in electoral defeat but i think regaining some of the parties soul and dignity feels pretty good and i get up in the morning and think "im a goody now not a baddy".

[jmothecat]

Did you read It?   On this page, the beauty of our democracy,  utterly disgusting.   Theres a reason they're called elected representatives,  on top of disgusting it's simple ignorance about what democracy actually is.

Why is that disgusting? There are some views the populace at large might have which are odious and extremist but because of the way our political system works are unlikely to be adopted. The death penalty, for example, extreme anti-immigration policies as another. What is your obsession with me having 'vile' views? By and large my views are very mainstream social democratic 'guardian reader' views.

[jmothecat]

Watched bits of the speech and it seemed pretty decent. He's never going to be Cicero but it seemed like a good attempt to unify the party and set out a statement of intent.

Wondering what JMO, BerwickMad and the other residents Corbynaphobes thought? Has it won you over at all?

I thought it was a decent speech. It was coherent.

I think if Corbyn sacked Milne and McDonnell it would go a long way to make people from the moderate wings of the party feel welcomed and would give his calls for unity a strong backing. I'm glad to hear him call for Unity, now I think is time for him to show he means it and for the moderates to take him up on it.

[ayrmad]

8 hours ago, Bully Di Villa said:

You don't need that much "oomph". John Major won an election.

Why?

[jmothecat]

On another note I've noticed Jackie Walker is in the news again, apparently under pressure to resign as Momentum vice chair. I thought she had already resigned a few months ago after being caught out with controversial/anti-Semitic views.

[Bully Wee Villa]

Why?

Not sure. It's difficult to ask his supporters because you never meet anyone who admits to having voted for them!

[WaffenThinMint]

3 hours ago, Bully Di Villa said:

He's never going to be Cicero

Unless you mean Cicero from Skyrim.